What's wrong with this picture?

This is a lot of pan depth showing.

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IT'S UP SIDE DOWN!


No, really. Look at the sides where the gusset for the rack is. That is where it hits and cause the problem. As your motor settles in your car you will loose that wonderful gap and everything will start hitting. Trust me!

Admin wrote:IT'S UP SIDE DOWN!


No, really. Look at the sides where the gusset for the rack is. That is where it hits and cause the problem. As your motor settles in your car you will loose that wonderful gap and everything will start hitting. Trust me!

Yes the gusset is striking, however based on what I've read, it shouldn't (the drivers side of this pan has already been cut per xschop's measurements. What I'm really thinking looks wrong is how far the back of the pan will be sitting below the xmember. There is a full 1 1/4" of pan there. If that exposure were the 1/4-1/2" that is typical in pics I've seen, the passenger side gusset wouldn't be in the way.

Shim the uprights...

Looks like they're too short for your application. How much, if any did you drop the X-Member?

gt1scca wrote:Shim the uprights...

Looks like they're too short for your application. How much, if any did you drop the X-Member?

1) I was just doing some measuring. They are way too short. I'd have to shim them like... 1/2" to 3/4" ... which seems like a lot to me. I'd have to get new mounts or get some fairly thick plates and longer through-xmember bolts to make these work.

2) I'm not at the drop the xmember point yet. The clearance problem I'm looking at right now has to be solved in a very specific way... whereas the xmember drop is variable based on manufacturing differences between 944s (based on what I've read), willingness to modify the hood to varying degrees, etc. That being the case...

I decided to test mount the motor and intake as-is first, since the top-side xmember-to-pan-clearance isn't very adjustable. Once I have test mounted the longblock and intake I plan to reattach the hood to determine how much I need to drop the xmember. Something I want to minimize to avoid unnecessary geometry adjustments to the front end susp setup.

Compared to your LT1 motor mount designs, the mounts I got from xschop are at least ~1/2" shorter in overall height. Perhaps that's intentional since this is the LS1 -- I have a PM into him about that.

Here's the outcome of trying some "shims" I found around the garage - don't laugh, I know, wood is perhaps not the best material for use in a car. It's just for fitting purposes.

Pictures are worth... well you get it.

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The pictures are taken at a strange angle BUT I would do some shaping on the cross member vertical supports, the ones that are angled. You may be able to loose the spacers under the uprights.

Pan hanging below the cross member is not an problem. There will be many thing that hang below it!

Even with the "shims", the pan will hit...unless you trim the X-Member. If all else fails, fab the LT1 uprights, and mimic the Milodon 30915 below...

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As far as the pan extending past the X-Member,

944v8inDFW wrote:There will be many things that hang below it!

Like, exhaust...

Trim your steering rack bosses, mainly the passenger's side to get another 1/2" or so drop. Also that Carshop Inc. Setback plate may need to be notched some, The original plates I got from them had to be notched 1/4" aftwards on the driver's side to match the upright perfectly. After this you can fine tune the fitting by adding large washers between the isolator and set back plates. I had to add 1/4" washers on the driver's side only to get more steering shaft to Hooker 2312 clearance when I anticipate the engine to settle later.

Does he have the plates on the mounts that bolt to the block? I don't see them in the pics. OOps, just saw them. I think mine are thicker though. A guess would be 1/2 inch

I got some washers today to try smaller shim increments. I had to clearance the xmember as described, just a bit to make it come down, but then it occurred to me, the rack still has to mount here and it shouldn't touch the pan either. It hits the pan. So... the ajustments and pain continue, I'll update this thread when I find the right depth for everything.

I figured the 1/4" Carshop Inc plates needed 1/4" spacers between them and the Rubber isolators but how thick is the Red Polyurethane isolators you are using? I heard that they may be thinner than the factory rubber ones which would be a factor here.

xschop wrote:I figured the 1/4" Carshop Inc plates needed 1/4" spacers between them and the Rubber isolators but how thick is the Red Polyurethane isolators you are using? I heard that they may be thinner than the factory rubber ones which would be a factor here.

Spacing the mounts further from the motor would exacerbate the twisting problem. Currently, the uprights will fit perfectly, without an oil pan. As I've found, any shims will move the uprights closer to eachother, effectively "squeezing" the engine between them.

From what I see, the problem is the angle of the isolator mount hole in the upright relative to the angle it is attached at the xmember.

Again, pictures are worth more...

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That should show what I mean. Now, on to the shimming discussion.

To more clearly show what I'm talking about, I attached everything without any shims, but only threaded the uprights to the xmember just barely and let them "hang". Then I used some blocks of wood and an allen key to hold the weight of the xmember on the pan itself in a level position that would be a normal/sane outcome for the mounts. This would then allow me to simply look at how the uprights are hanging from the xmember to "show me" what kind of shim I would need.

My calipers showed me a 8mm gap on one side, and a 1mm gap on the other. So that's it, to shim these mounts I have to use a "wedge" shim of some kind to fix the geometry.

Alternative, as you can see in the picture, I could design some kind of steel block for either side that would move the isolators down, but not out.

Do yo have a set of the Factory style Rubber mounts to compare? Those look to be off at the tabs. Also I had 2 sets of rubber isolators and one of them had slotted mounting holes and the other did not. Also note that no matter how much measuring you do, you will not have the same dimensions once you actually install the motor in the bay of the 944 due to the fact the frame rails were all not laser/precision positioned when these cars were built.

xschop wrote:Do yo have a set of the Factory style Rubber mounts to compare? Those look to be off at the tabs. Also I had 2 sets of rubber isolators and one of them had slotted mounting holes and the other did not. Also note that no matter how much measuring you do, you will not have the same dimensions once you actually install the motor in the bay of the 944 due to the fact the frame rails were all not laser/precision positioned when these cars were built.

I do not have multiple sets of isolators, are there multiple versions of the old style short mounts that place the bolt holes 1" off? That would be a great outcome, as I could just buy the other mounts and they would fit.

I wound up using the slotted ones and they also had their centers more towards the bottom near the single bolt hole. Then on the Driver's side near the header, I simply put 1/4" spacers between the rubber isolator and the engine set back plate (MINE are 1/2" thick) to get more steering shaft to 2312 header clearance.

Please forgive me for asking a question for what is probably an obvious answer to you guys. But please keep in mind that I have not started my install yet and therefore I am not familiar with the fitment issues.

So here it is -
Why not just machine the cross member to relieve the material that is in the way? Would the oil pan still need modification? From what it looks like, the interference issue is with the material that is situated between rack mount uprights (for lack of better term). Cant that material be removed leaving the rack mount hole locations and resolve the clearance issue? I have a spare cross member here and a HAAS CNC that can remove material in a heartbeat.

Thanks,
Ted

I have a Hurco CNC and I didn't have to use that. I simply used a 4" angle grinder and removed the majority of material from the passenger's side steering rack boss after making the Moroso pan mod to the driver's side. I checked the single hole mounts that I have on hand against another set of slotted ones at Oreilly's Auto last night and sure 'nuff, the slotted ones allow for way more adjustment and do set the hole centers further down. So I guess I need to put out a disclaimer that the uprights fit the slotted style mounts with lower center holes. If you absolutely have to run the PU mounts, they can be modded with lower bolt tabs welded to them...JAT

OK, I think I get it. Kind of hard to tell from the pictures but after reading through again I think I've got it. It is mounting plate and clearance. I think when I do mine I'll just go ahead and clean up that part of the x-member anyway.

It'll be interesting to see how Greg's book details this.


Ted

xschop wrote:...So I guess I need to put out a disclaimer that the uprights fit the slotted style mounts with lower center holes. If you absolutely have to run the PU mounts, they can be modded with lower bolt tabs welded to them...JAT

Would you mind posting dims of the correct setback plates that fit the uprights, or to a 3rd party setback plate that does? At the moment I'm exploring using a degree shim for a Jeep leafspring to correct the upright angle relative to the sbc mount position. However, if I can buy a set of plates that do not need machining to fit, then that would be preferred.

Thx.

I posted the exact dims in the motor mount thread. The problem is that they are stronger 1/2" thick plate steel (Carshop inc's are 1/4"). To compound the problem, the Polyurethane mounts have the bolt throughs located further upwards. To easily fix the problem is to get the slotted rubber mounts or mod the carshop set back plates where the PU mounts sit further down (slot holes) and out(spacers).

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Looks like you have to order two sets of the carshopinc plates.

Careful how much you shim one side vs. the other. Watch the stick shift pin to tunnel clearance. I shimmed my LT on the drivers side too much and reverse gear was a PITA the get to cause that pin on the shifter would hit the tunnel metal.

****Looks like you have to order two sets of the carshopinc plates.****

Actually, I looked at carshop inc's plates and they can be redrilled down by 5/8" and the isolator bottom hole can be drilled upwards by 5/8"....That should fix the problem with a few washers attached between the Polyurethane isolator and plate.

Bluemach1 wrote:...It'll be interesting to see how Greg's book details this.

Well. Let me tell ya...

The set back plates allow SBC mount locations on the LSX. Simple as that. The LTX uprights should work with the LSX, given the proper set back plates. "Set back" is what it implies...the plates relocate the motor mount position on the block. Differences in upright design will have a huge impact on engine location. If the .50" thick plates (ex. CarShop, Inc. #CS 2370) are used with the SBC/LTX style uprights, the LSX block will be installed in basically the same location as the earlier engines. Thousands of street rods have done so, the 944 shouldn't be any different. Shimming this and spacing that should not be an issue.

I'll bring this up again also...and it is echoed in the manual: Start with a solid, or at least good condition transaxle mount. Trim the X-Member or mod the oil pan. SOME cars MAY require X-Member spacers, most will not.

As far as the oil pan mods...

The LTX pan must be modded, period. Too deep. The LSX pan mods are a matter of what the car requires...I included mod dimensions for the Moroso 20140 and Milodon 30915, and the passenger side mod is there as an option. Both mods have been necessary in different applications, and X-Member mounting hole locations vary slightly through total (944) production.

Thanks, for that information! I look forward to receiving the manual. Lots to learn, lots to do!

Ted