Re: Another 928 rescue & swap thread .. considering an L33

[erioshi]

Went back in for a bit more CIS punishment.  All easy stuff today.  Used compressed air to pop open each injector, filled them each with alcohol (to let them sit overnight), made sure all of the lines injector lines were clear, and tossed a can of seafoam onto the fuel tank with the gas.  I did all of this with the injectors and intake spider still in the car.  Definitely not the best way to go after the injectors and remaining fuel system, but I'm not committed enough to this engine to want to pull everything apart, go over it in detail, and then spend money on parts I'm planning to replace.  If this doesn't clear the fuel system up enough to get the car up and running, I think I'm done with it until after the holidays.  That is when I am looking to start really working on the engine swap.

[erioshi]

Went back in for a bit more CIS punishment.  All easy stuff today.  Used compressed air to pop open each injector, filled them each with alcohol (to let them sit overnight), made sure all of the lines injector lines were clear, and tossed a can of seafoam onto the fuel tank with the gas.  I did all of this with the injectors and intake spider still in the car.  Definitely not the best way to go after the injectors and remaining fuel system, but I'm not committed enough to this engine to want to pull everything apart, go over it in detail, and then spend money on parts I'm planning to replace.  If this doesn't clear the fuel system up enough to get the car up and running, I think I'm done with it until after the holidays.  That is when I am looking to start really working on the engine swap.

And I'm done with CIS.  Got the car running well enough that getting it in and out of the garage, and up and down the driveway passes the "just barely good enough" test.  Time to clear off the other projects so I can properly focus on the swap.

Oh, pics may be dark for a couple days.  Changed my web hosting service for personal projects and it will take a couple days to get everything rebuilt.  Bluehost.com kept raising their prices while the competition has been improving, so I'm giving Arvixe.com a try.

[suboptimalfit]

I know you have no love for the original engine, however there are wiring harnesses available from 928 Motorsports. not cheap by any means, but they exist!

I'm not a purist, but you have to give the car/engineers a bit of a break these beasts were designed in the 70's!

you can't compare them to "modern" computer run systems-(or their wiring systems).

that said, I cringe every time I look at the backside of the fuse panel...

[erioshi]

I know you have no love for the original engine, however there are wiring harnesses available from 928 Motorsports. not cheap by any means, but they exist!

I'm not a purist, but you have to give the car/engineers a bit of a break these beasts were designed in the 70's!

you can't compare them to "modern" computer run systems-(or their wiring systems).

that said, I cringe every time I look at the backside of the fuse panel...

I really like the driving experience of the 928, it's an almost perfect grand touring car.  I also appreciate all of the engineering that went into it.  That said, it is very complicated for the level of technology available at the time it was designed.  It's that complexity that leads to the maintenance and reliability problems.  Less complexity would probably have made for a better ownership experience, and these cars having a much better long term reputation.  Essentially I'm seeking simplicity through improved technology.  I want my car to be easier to live with, and require less onerous preventative maintenance.  A modern wiring harness simplified down to cover all of the car's basic needs but without dead bulb indicators or the Porsche central warning system, but with modern connectors and a modern ECU will give me that.

I don't mind the 928 engine when it's running right, aside from it's lack of power when compared to modern engines.  An L33 based engine with a few upgrades should get me close to 400 whp.  My Evo was about 400 whp / 400 wtq; to me that car was fast enough to be fun, and yet still had a mild enough engine build to be very "real world" friendly on the street.  My research into the L33 leads me to believe I can enjoy that same balance here.

My dislike of CIS (and other mechanical fuel injection systems), carbs (especially multi-carb set-ups) and related "from the day" vacuum systems .. and their related electrical systems .. really comes from having worked with them on a number of restoration projects.  And then I started playing with cars where everything was controlled by a decent, programmable computer, and the electrical systems didn't need the kind of attention most older euro cars seem to require.  Suddenly cars made sense, and changing and modifying them made sense.  No more voodoo-witchcraft to make them behave.  Here's a prime example: The fuel pressure of the WUR and primary air control plate on a Bosch CIS system in a 928 are adjusted by hitting pins with a hammer.  Think about that .. in the mid 1970's some of the most sophisticated cars in the world were literally designed to be hit with a meal rock to tune them.  I'm sure a more reasonable design was possible.

As a counter-point, my Evo's computer controlled the entire engine, and all of the parameters could be changed and modified.  I did need to learn some XML and spend a bit of time researching what to change, but with that knowledge I was able to build a customized set of ECU code that I could run in my Evo and tune with a laptop.  Converting the car from gasoline to E85 was as simple as installing larger injectors, changing the injector scaling in the ECU tables, using feedback from the wideband and data logging software to make changes to the AFR tables and ignition timing tables, and then enjoying the 100 whp bump in power.  It took an afternoon to get the car to better than 95% right, and I spent a couple more weeks doing data logging and occasionally making minor adjustments with my laptop to get to OEM driveability in temperatures from -30f to 100f.  Adding cams, a slightly larger turbo, hacking the ECU to run a GM boost controller (for more boost), and a number of other changes were just as easy, and just as reliable after being dialed in.  After all was said and done, my Evo was running with almost double it's original whp & and wtq, and it was still as drivable and usable as an OEM Evo.

And you are right, I probably am being overly critical of some parts of the car.  The real test will be seeing what I actually change as I move forward.  Unless I actually make changes to the systems I'm complaining about, all I'm doing is whining.

[suboptimalfit]

please don't forget the central locking system for the doors... (either vacuum or electric).

another over complicated, sadly failure prone early idea.

agree with you about the "greatness" and flexibility of modern control systems. light years ahead of the 928 originals.

amazing what a few decades can do eh?

side note- i have the original sales receipt for my car it was a staggering $46k in 1983. this thing was up against supercars of the time competing with the Ferrari buying market.

i shake my head in awe every time i see that invoice.

[erioshi]

Let me provide two other automotive examples sitting in my garage right now that I can't help but compare to my 1979 928 in terms of complexity, quality and reliability.

The first is my 1971 Lotus Europa.  It is also a truly amazing bit of automotive engineering.  The handing and driving dynamics are, for lack of a better way to describe them, transcendent.  The only car I have ever driven with better handling was a full-on sports racer; a Swift DB5.  I'm not qualified to tell you how a Swift DB5 rates in the world of full-on sports racers, but there is no comparison to anything ever designed to drive on a public road.  Except possibly a well sorted Europa on a good set of modern tires.  Unfortunately mine is in need of a full restoration before I'll be able to enjoy that experience again.  Luckily by owning a Europa, I've made friends within the local Europa community, and I've been fortunate enough to be able to drive a few of their cars.  Anyway, handing is not the point of this discussion.  But it's pretty much impossible to discuss a Europa with it's owner without them going on about the car's handing...  I mean they make an Esprit (which is basically just a larger, heavier Europa covered in sexy Italian coachwork), feel large and heavy, and a Miata feel positively clumsy.

The Europa was engineered when Lotus was at the top of it's game, and no one in the world could produce a better suspension.  The engineering behind the car was world class.  From a quality perspective, the Europa suffered from a number of compromises.  There was so much new technology and so many new production techniques were being used, that cost control was a real problem.  Lotus also didn't want the Europa to end up costing more than their more up-market and better equipped versions of the Elan at the time.  So, like all Lotus cars, there was quite a bit of parts bin diving and compromise when it came to the car's actual production.  Ironically, my Europa, despite having slightly fewer miles and just a few more years on my 928 is more willing to start and run than my 928.  I can't say drive because the brake hydraulics are shot.  But the electrical system, although much simpler, is actually more functional than the one on my 928.  And this is an old Lotus we're talking about here .. one of the most notorious cars in the world for being unreliable.  To be fair, keeping a Lotus running ove an significant period of time definitely requires much more preventive maintenance and due diligence than the 928.  But at least for now, on any given morning, the Lotus is probably more likely to make it out of the garage than my 928.

The other car I'd like to bring up is a 1986 Mazda RX-7.  It's not mine.  It's at my place because a friend and I are about to begin replacing the original rotary engine and transmission with a more modern set of components sourced from a C4 Corvette.  There's a kit, and while the RX-7 has a good chassis, it really needs more power.  My understanding is that the chevy swap will only slightly increase weight on the front end, resulting in about 1/2 of a percentage point of weight bias change.  I'll be comparing the before and after cornerweights to see if that's true.  The second generation RX-7 is not as nice a car as the 928.  The chassis does not feel as quite as stiff, and I do not believe the same attention has been paid to corrosion prevention.  I believe the only aluminum panel is the hood.  Overall it's a good car, but doesn't feel as solid as a 928.

That said, for only being a few years newer than my 928, the car is ridiculously reliable.  The electrical system works flawlessly, with the exception of two common failures.  The wiper control module needs to have a couple capacitors replaced, and so does the clock in the central warning control.  Otherwise, we've only had to replace one heater hose after pulling the car out of a garage where it had sat for years.  The new owner then proceeded to put on fresh tires, and then drove the wheels off it for all of this last summer.  And the car never missed a beat .. well aside from that heater hose.  Oh, I did replace all the belts and flushed out the cooling system before turning him loose.  So a few years newer, with an entry level Japanese EFI system, and the car seems completely bulletproof when compared to the my 928 from a reliability standpoint.  And this particular RX-7 already has already been driven over twice the number of miles of my 928 in it's lifetime.

So two other cars I can compare to my 928 that are both within ten years of it's age.  Both very different cars in terms of quality and production values.  And both ultimately seem to be more dependable right now.  All though I'll offer that if the CIS on my 928 was working, the Lotus would  loose the reliability challenge.  Of course that would still leave the 928 way behind the RX-7...

[suboptimalfit]

i'm sorry i derailed this post into a "this car is better than that car" pissing contest.

not my intent. there is enough of that on other boards.

not that i have to defend the German engineers, but i rather enjoy owning a "high end" Porsche.

and yes, the mazda sbc/sbf project is a fun one.(i messed around with a ford 5.0/T5 5speed).

[erioshi]

i'm sorry i derailed this post into a "this car is better than that car" pissing contest.

not my intent. there is enough of that on other boards.

not that i have to defend the German engineers, but i rather enjoy owning a "high end" Porsche.

and yes, the mazda sbc/sbf project is a fun one.(i messed around with a ford 5.0/T5 5speed).
 

I'm sorry if my posts have come off as trying to claim clear superiority for any one car listed above, it's not how I feel, or my intention.  If I had wanted to own an RX-7 instead of my 928, I would have bought one.  But I wanted another 928, and badly enough to be willing to take on a car that will be a significant rescue project.

I'm very much a fan of all kinds of different cars, with all kinds of different characters.  I have owned and enjoyed quite a variety of German, English, Italian, Japanese and even a couple American cars.  I have a bad habit of buying other people's struggling projects and then bringing them back to life.  I do try to avoid the completely hopeless ones.

My intent wasn't to try and drag any specific car through the mud, but more to make a couple of interesting comparisons.  I'm sorry my tone came off poorly.  I was hoping the feel would be more like "car guys talking smack in the garage" than a whiny soap-box diatribe.  I think every car has both it's strengths and weaknesses, no matter how well engineered and well respected.  I truly appreciate good engineering and clever ingenuity, but am not above the idea of enjoying a bit of humor when I come across "interesting" engineering surprises.

Some of my friends race RX-7s, both FCs and FDs.  They've blown a few engines over the years, and I've always teased them about how their rotaries lack the "reliability canisters" found in a piston engine.  Of course I used to race rotaries as well, and also blew up my share of rotary engines.  So one time a couple years ago, I lost a piston engine on the track.  They, of course, wanted to know how those "reliability canisters" were working out for me.   My response was "The reliability canisters seem to be fine, but the catastrophe belt has lived up to its name." .. and we all enjoyed a good laugh.  When I complain about my 928 or any of the other cars I've owned, this is generally the spirit intended.

I believe the 928 is a fantastic car.  That's why I own one (actually two right now, when you count the race car), and plan to keep mine for a very long time.  I'll just have it spiced with a bit of LSx, please.

[erioshi]

Hmm, weather is finally warming up .. time to get moving on this again. Sent a PM and hopefully I can get a swap kit on the way.

[erioshi]

Hmm, weather is finally warming up .. time to get moving on this again. Sent a PM and hopefully I can get a swap kit on the way.

PayPal sent .. hopefully I'll be seeing some parts soon!

I may even have a line on a good local engine. I'm hoping to check it out this week.

[erioshi]

I hear that parts are on the way .. thanks xchop .. great to work with you!

The local engine turned out to be a bust. Decided to jump onto car-part.com (again) and see what else was in the area. I spotted a new listing for a lower mileage engine, and turned out to be a full L33 drop-out with pedal, ecm, harness, etc for a very decent price compared to what I have been seeing lately. I called them up and everything will be shipping out to me on Monday.

So two big steps, the L33 and swap kit are now ordered!

Now begins the hunt for the other small bits needed to move this swap forward. Next steps will probably be the engine mounts, oil pan, bell housing and related clutch parts. I looking for a lightweight flywheel, and I'm always shopping for good deals on parts.

[erioshi]

And both the L33 and swap kit are now resting in the garage. The next month or so will be busy with other projects, but after that I hope to dive in.

[erioshi]

I need to get some pictures back up one of these days.

Now have a basic OE LS1 flywheel and pressure plate on hand.  The bell housing has also arrived.  Oil pan stuff and engine mounts are next on my list.

Ended up finding a good deal locally on a set of 996 take-offs.  That gives me the first two of the four 18x10 wheels I'm looking to run.  Now I just need to spend the next few months looking for a matching set...

[erioshi]

.. Now I just need to spend the next few months looking for a matching set...

I expected this to be a bit of a hunt, but found another set locally with the right sizes and offsets.

Now back to pulling together the swap parts that are still needed.

[erioshi]

Been a while since I've posted an update.  Been busy with work and just collecting parts when I have time to catch up.  My shopping list has gotten much shorter and I'm down to just a few more things before I need to start putting the car together.  Some of this will need to be worked out as the new engine is installed.

--- edit: List updated a few posts below ---

I also need to take some time and put my pictures back online...

[erioshi]

Disappointing .. the "Flex-Fuel" injectors that arrived had the same part number and shape as regular gasoline injectors.  Looks like somewhere along the line I was shipped the wrong fuel rail and Injectors.

The correct version has been ordered from another source and the part numbers confirmed.  Unfortunately this time it was about $145 with tax and shipping .. still not too bad.

[erioshi]

The project slowly moves along. Finally had a chance to order most of the bits needed for my cam-swap and refresh of the L33. I'm not planning to pull or open the rods, pistons and main bearings unless I see excessive wear on the cam bearings, or there is something with the bores to indicate the need for a closer look.

[erioshi]

Update - more parts are here and new chassis:

Have decided to put the L33 into a different 928 chassis. I'll post more details when I start a specific thread. The short version is that the cosmetics and interior are at 95% on this car, and it already has AC. My '79 would require significant time and money to to bring to the same level. With the new car I should be driving this summer.

928 swap race car should finally be moved into the new build space in about a month. It has been in storage while waiting on available garage space.

Swap parts that are on the shelf:

Complete used L33 (Aluminum 5.3) drop-out with all accessories, full harness, ecm, throttle body, pedal assembly and pedal assembly control module

Used L59 (Flex-Fuel 5.3) fuel injectors that should flow 33 lbs/min and plug directly into my truck harness

xchop's LS conversion kit
New Corvette two piece bell housing
New F-Body engine mounts
New LS1 Fidanza flywheel
New Corvette clutch slave cylinder
New CTS-V front end accessories drive kit - includes all new AC, PS and alternator plus all belts, pulleys and bolts
New CTS-V water pump
New CTS-V thermostat and integrated water pump outlet
New CTS-V harmonic balancer
New EPS cam kit with dual valve springs, retainers and new pushrods
New fuel rail assembly with ebay fuel rails and the AN fittings needed for a returnless fuel system that works with nylon New lines and quick connect fittings
New Sanderson LS134 coated headers with supporting hardware
New SpeedMaster LS aluminum rear sump oil pan & pickup
New ARP flywheel and pressure plate bolts
New bell housing bolts
New Dorman LS6 intake manifold
New timing chain & gears
New Corvette returnless style fuel filter
Lots of new gaskets
OEM radiator

New Sachs clutch disk - may be replaced with Spec kit
New LS1 pressure plate - may be replaced with Spec kit

Swap parts still needed:

Rework new SpeedMaster LS aluminum rear sump oil pan & pickup - add pan baffles & modify to clear crossmember, etc.
Remote clutch slave bleed kit
Remote oil filter kit
MAF, air box, intake tubing and filter - will wait until the engine is sitting in the car
Heater hoses - will wait until the engine is in the car
AC hoses - will wait until the engine is in the car
Power steering hoses - will wait until the engine is in the car

Additional swap related work:

(?) Have the heads ported? Now is probably the best time for this if I'm going to do it.
Inspect engine lower half to see if it needs attention.
(?) New cam bearings?
(?) Replacement clutch master cylinder? - everyone seems to replace this, but the OEM 928 unit seems to be sized comparably to the Corvette unit. Might be a good WYIT item.

Already on the other car (but should be checked with this one?):

New nylon fuel lines for the back half of the car up to the OE hard line to the engine bay
New fuel rated rubber vent lines for tank vents and vapor chambers
Clean, paint and repair fuel tank cradle and fuel pump cover (if needed)

Needed non-engine parts before car reaches driver status:

New in-tank fuel screen - cheap insurance for the OE fuel pump.
Refinish new (used) wheels before mounting tires
(?) New spacers and studs (rear) for the 10x18 wheels? - I'm going 10x18 square with 265/35-18 rubber - will rears need spacers to look right? (non-essential)

Possible Porsche related maintenance expected:

New shift linkage parts
New torque tube bearings
Possibly replace transmission mounts

Outstanding questions and areas needing research

(?) Adapt GM parts for Porsche PS pump use? - research and decision needed. Would be nice to retain OE steering feel.
VSS solution - need to research this a bit more
Tuning software - Need to decide between HPTuners and EFI Live
Post-collector flange exhaust system design and parts selection - dual 2.5" or single 3+"? Based on specs provided with cam. Will probably wait until the engine is in the car.
LS6(?) PCV and engine venting updates - Need to investigate this further to avoid LS1 style oil consumption issues
Electric cooling fans and shroud - Ford dual-fan unit?

Getting closer...

[erioshi]

Decided to replace the LS1 OE pressure plate and Sachs (for Dodge) clutch disk with Spec Stage 1 kit. This car should be mild enough that a stage 1 kit will hold the power. I'm hoping I don't run into issues like some people seem to have with the the Spec stuff. If I do, I will probably go back to an LS1 pressure plate with a custom clutch disk made from the LS1 disk and Porsche splines. I did look into this before deciding to go Spec, but the cost was lower with the Spec kit.

Why all the over-thinking? It seems the Sachs clutch disk doesn't fit the splines as well as an OE Porsche disk. Here's a link with a picture of the difference: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'd rather not risk the potential of excess strain or wear to the Porsche parts because of a poor fit, replacements tend to be expensive.

[xschop]

Were you using the BBD-4163 Sachs disc?
I know its holding up to a 6.0L cammed 948. So far so good.

I've got another TT shaft that Im going to carbeurize soon and Ill post pics of the method. Do this and have the tip insertion correct and it should handle whatever yo throw at it.

[erioshi]

That is the disk I was using, and quite a few people do seem to have great success with it. I was just a bit worried about possible play in the splines. Like I said, probably over thinking it. Good to know it can handle the power.

[FrostedFlakeJake]

Well that's why it cost so darn much for you to convert your truck engine into a car engine! All new parts!

Just out of curiosity what did the intake manifold run you?

[erioshi]

Well that's why it cost so darn much for you to convert your truck engine into a car engine! All new parts!

Just out of curiosity what did the intake manifold run you?

There is truth in that, but buying used parts would probably have cost 50% of new with an uncertain lifespan, lol.  After thinking about it, I decided the extra cost was probably worth it in the long run.

For an intake manifold, I purchased the Dorman LS6 replacement from Rock Auto for a bit under $300.  Given that abused LS1 intakes are going for $150 to $200 locally and used LS6 are $300+, trying the Dorman seemed to make sense.  I could have skipped the intake manifold gaskets, though, as the intake comes with them and the throttle body gasket pre-installed.

It does feel good to finally be down to mostly just needing the parts that have to be fitted with the ability to measure everything in place.  In a couple weeks, the race car moves out of the garage and the real work on my project finally begins.

[erioshi]

Wheels are back from re-finishing.  Not exactly swap parts, but part of getting the car road-worthy.

[erioshi]

And the fun continues. While stripping down the L33 yesterday I discovered the two of the AC bosses and the related webbing on the block were cracked. The rest of the engine doesn't show any signs of damage or a hit, so I suspect someone used the AC compressor as a lifting point when they pulled the engine.

Luckily finding aluminum block and head repair is fairly easy up here. I'll have to see what the repair will cost and then decide if I'm tracking down a replacement block or having this one repaired. The engine has been stored for over a year (with a 30 day warranty), so it looks like I own this problem.

Also it looks like three of the cylinders where passing a bit more oil out the exhaust ports than I like, so a rebuild may be in order. Between welding and a rebuild, plans for this engine may change a bit. I'll have to look at options and compare costs.