944Hybrids: 924/944/968 and 928 V8 Conversions
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HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951 Empty OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951

Post  tomfree on Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:39 am

(crosspost from Rennlist...but figured I'd get a different audience here)

Putting the cart slightly ahead of the horse, but wanted to start this discussion early to allow me a chance to shop smartly for my build. Backstory: I want to participate in the 2021 One Lap of America with an '87 951 w/ LSx swap. The car will be my track-day car as well. I've been doing track days for nearly 20 years, LeMons/ChampCar races for over 10, and I've driven a lot of different stuff. I've had caged race cars, I've driven bone-stock street cars with nothing more than tires/ pads, and most everything in between. The 951 will be street driven, full interior, A/C, max-performance summer tires (Michelin P4s, RE-71R, etc.), and must be comfortable within reason for 5k miles of street driving in a week between events in OneLap. My goal for the event is to have fun and go fairly fast. I do not expect to be a top 10 finisher, I just want to finish every event during the week.

To keep the signal/noise ratio down, I used to have a 944, I know what I'm getting into, I understand the risks, and I'm painfully aware of the costs. Embarassed My goal for this thread is to examine options for 2 things: Brakes and Suspension

Brakes: With the assumption that I'll run a minimum of an 18" wheel (Leaning towards 18x10 Carrerra 3s at all corners with spacers where needed), I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do for brakes, but wanted to float the idea here for comments/recommendations.
- Front: C6 Z06 6-piston calipers with Cayenne rotors using an adapter and centering ring from Rennlist user "superman22x"
- Rear: Front 951 calipers on stock rear rotors
- Front Pads: Something from the Raybestos ST-line of track pads, maybe the ST-42/ST-43
- Rear Pads: A good high-performance street pad (Hawk HP+, etc.)
- Fluid: Motul 600 or similar
- Booster/master cylinder: Mustang Hydroboost and the OEM 951 MC (Using TPC's adapter)

Suspension: Since this is the suspension forum...that's where I want the real help. I want to strike the right balance of trackable/streetable with this setup...and that's hard. I've had "big bars/soft springs" setups in the past, and that's probably the direction I need to go with this. I'm willing to spend a little extra on dampers to give myself some adjustability and a compliant street ride.
- Bushings: OEM Rubber or is there a "hard rubber" option? No delrin, and prefer to stay away from poly if possible.
- Rear Torsion bars: Delete or keep?...all depends on spring rates, I suppose.
- Rear coilovers: Yes. I'm leaning towards out of the box KW v3 for street damping and decent adjustability. No clue what spring rates/lengths they have. Helper springs? I'm also considering MCS double-adjustables, but the price delta is pretty high
- Rear camber adjustment: Needed? Offset bushing? How?
- Front coilovers: Yes. Same KW v3 vs MCS debate. No idea on spring rates/lengths. Helper springs?
- Camber plates: Yes. Racer's edge? I'll need enough camber to fit large tires and not absolutely destroy them on the track.
- Anti-sway bars: My kneejerk response is a big bar in the front, regardless of the setup, and a couple of different bars in the rear to tune the car how I like it. No clue on manufacturer/sizes as I haven't shopped for them in 10+ years.

Hopefully that's enough (maybe too much) information to start the discussion. I welcome recommendations for vendors and setup.

tomfree

Posts : 3
Join date : 2020-02-20

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OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951 Empty Re: OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951

Post  Hotrodz of Dallas on Wed May 06, 2020 7:51 am

Welcome to the forum.

There's a lot of help and advice that can be had here. Search function is like any other forum. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

You are on the right track for your brakes. That's a proven setup you are planning on.

Suspension as you have already stated has many options. If you decide to go the MCS route, I am a dealer and can help you on pricing. You won't find a better suspension company for customer support. I have used their suspension on many different cars, and they have performed flawlessly. They can design a package that's perfect for your needs. There are a lot of other options as well. I came across a company called Ceika that has a full set of coilovers for less than $2k. Look very well made, but I don't know how well they work or last. I personally have MCS on 4 of our current cars. 3 race cars and one street driven Baja 944.
What I typically do on street cars is the leave the torsion bars in and just lower the car as far as it will go with the height adjusters. Then use the coilovers to raise it back to the height you want.
I personally wouldn't recommend camber plates for your application. Stick with the stock strut mounts. Will be a more complaint ride and won't start rattling as the camber plate monoball wears out. You can still get plenty camber with the stock mounts.

Sway bars can be a difficult choice. My street car go to option is the factory 968 M030 sway bars front and rear. They work really well for street and track. Kinda hard to beat Porsche engineering in this case.

Please feel free to ping me if you have any questions. I'm always happy to help.
Hotrodz of Dallas
Hotrodz of Dallas

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Join date : 2015-10-31
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Post  tomfree on Wed May 06, 2020 9:03 am

Extremely helpful reply! I realized that the post itself was part of the problem - too much, too hard to find the actual questions, etc. I actually rewrote my original post on Rennlist to have a better chance at a good response. I've searched and searched at Rennlist, 944online, and here. The information is out there, but the ability to find exactly what I'm looking for is tough.

Let me drill down a little on the camber adjustment in the front a bit. I recently had an e36 M3 with "swapped strut top mounts" for exactly the reasons you list. Swapping the mounts left to right/right to left gives you about -3.2/-3.5 of camber without the NVH of the spherical bearings.

Anecdotally, I'm assuming that I'll need around -3 for tire clearance at the spring and to not absolutely destroy the outside shoulders on track. Is that kind of camber possible w/o camber plates? I've done the "crash bolt" and "cam bolt" camber adjustments on other cars in the past. Both are prone to slipping. I'm definitely interested in your input on that point.

I'm going to run a pretty wide square wheel/tire combo (18x10, et 58, 275/35/18 or 285 if possible, spacers where needed), as mechanical grip on that car will be a big priority on the skidpad, and just putting ~400rwhp down.

tomfree

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Join date : 2020-02-20

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OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951 Empty Re: OneLap Brakes/Suspension for 951

Post  Hotrodz of Dallas on Wed May 06, 2020 9:29 am

The camber is going to be somewhat dictated by how you low you make the car. We have a 944 turbo that we raced in Porsche club. It had -3.5 degrees in the front with stock camber plates. But it was only a track car, so considerably lower than I would make a street car. As the car is adjusted higher, it will have less camber. My own personal street driven 944 turbo was low enough to get -2.5 degrees front camber and still got decent tire wear without killing the outside shoulders on the track. Also, most aftermarket coilovers have more camber adjustment built into the slotted part of the strut body.
Hotrodz of Dallas
Hotrodz of Dallas

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Post  Rich L. on Sat May 09, 2020 12:12 pm

Cool project for a cool event. I heartily recommend my setup for a street-able track car:

993 rear wheels 4x, 17x9 with 255/40 R-comps, 20mm spacer in rear
944 Turbo rear brakes
993 Turbo front calipers, 944 Turbo S spindles, 964 Turbo rotors (no adapters!)
Racer's Edge M030 front hubs
Racer's Edge mono balls, 4x in front, 2x in rear
Paragon Products Koni Cup coil-over kit w/ camber plates
650 lb front springs, 30 mm torsion bars + 100 lb helpers in rear
Weltmeister front sway bar, 968 m030 rear bar (19mm adjustable)
Rich L.
Rich L.

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Post  tomfree on Mon May 11, 2020 11:54 am

Rich L. wrote:Cool project for a cool event. I heartily recommend my setup for a street-able track car:

993 rear wheels 4x, 17x9 with 255/40 R-comps, 20mm spacer in rear
944 Turbo rear brakes
993 Turbo front calipers, 944 Turbo S spindles, 964 Turbo rotors (no adapters!)
Racer's Edge M030 front hubs
Racer's Edge mono balls, 4x in front, 2x in rear
Paragon Products Koni Cup coil-over kit w/ camber plates
650 lb front springs, 30 mm torsion bars + 100 lb helpers in rear
Weltmeister front sway bar, 968 m030 rear bar (19mm adjustable)

Rich - thanks for the recommendations. The wheel\tire setup is exactly what I used to run on my first 944 ('89 S2).

Where did you source the 993 calipers, and how much $? There is a used pair on a local board for $900.

tomfree

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Post  Hotrodz of Dallas on Mon May 11, 2020 11:59 am

We installed Boxster S calipers on our 944 race car. Work very good and are a lot less expensive than the 993 calipers. I don't remember off the top of my head where we sourced the adapters, but I'll find out when I get a chance.
Hotrodz of Dallas
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Post  Rich L. on Mon May 11, 2020 9:48 pm

tomfree wrote:Where did you source the 993 calipers, and how much $?  There is a used pair on a local board for $900.

Oh Man, it's been a good 10 years. Got OEM take-offs to be sure when the Chinese knock offs started showing up. They've been on a few of my cars now, keep rebuilding them and they keep performing.
Rich L.
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