944Hybrids: 924/944/968 and 928 V8 Conversions
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HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap

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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty Re: Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap

Post  Raymond-P Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:59 am

Bob, that did cross my mind. I may be in trouble. I have no choice on the covers so I may have to explore MC options.
Raymond-P
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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty AC Compressor Replacement

Post  Raymond-P Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:52 am

Greeting forum friends!

The engine oil galley is primed, and I’ve replaced my original TPC motor mount bushings with upgraded units provided by Kent at TPC.  (See my post “TPC Motor Mount Bushing Upgrade.”)

While I’m waiting for forum input on solutions for my header/starter contact issue, I figured I might as well share my AC compressor upgrade.  Recall that I wanted to retain my AC but I thought it would be complicated and likely delay my “Start-Up” date.

The bottom line is an advanced forum search produced a post that lead me to the website DirtyDingo Motorsports and a Sanden SD7B10 LS Low Mount AC Combo Kit for the LSX motors, Model #DD-LS-SD7B10-LM-KIT $420
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The post was titled AC Parts Reference from Porsche951 or LS3 but I can’t seem to find it again.  BTW, I did copy it to my PC if anyone is interested.

I had some trouble ordering this kit on the DD site because at checkout, I was getting a “SOLD OUT” notice, but they advertise on E-bay also and I was able to place my order.  Same price.  I probably could have called them directly and ordered the kit.

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<Factory Porsche AC Compressor>                                                   <Dirty Dingo Low Mount AC Kit>

The DD custom mounting brackets and AC line adapter are very well made, and everything fit together perfectly.  The supplied hardware works for multiple engines and the installation instructions are very clear on how to use the optional holes and spacers.

Here is the link to the installation instructions that are on the DD website:
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As per instruction, all engine block hole threads were chased with my Craftsman M10-1.50 tap, and the M10-1.50x25mm Button Head Allen bolts received a dab of anti-seize.  A little goes a long way!!

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<Chasing the M10-1.50 Threads>                                                               <Anti-Seize as directed>

For my 2002 Pontiac WS6 LS1, the middle mounting holes are the ticket, and I used a 6 mm Allen Head socket to torque them to 28 ft-lbs.

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<Middle Mounting Hole for WS6 LS1>                                                      <Bottom Bracket Installed>

Next, the lower compressor ears are slid over the lower bracket so the M8-1.25x100mm hinge bolt can be inserted. This bolt fits through both compressor ears and threads into the front compressor ear.  It should remain finger tight at this point.

The top mounting bracket is then installed in similar fashion but with custom aluminum spacers to clear a local block casting.  The top bracket bolts are M10-1.50x40mm Button Head Allen bolts.

The compressor is then rotated upward to line up the top bracket with the compressor holes. The front bolt is an M8-1.25x20mm Allen Head bolt and threads into the front compressor ear. The rear bolt is an M8-1.25x40mm Allen Head bolt and uses 2 stainless washers and a lock nut to clamp the steel bushing in the top rear compressor ear to the mounting bracket.  
Note: I had to reposition the steel bushing so the compressor ear would fit into the bracket.  I used a scrap bolt and nut with some washers as a makeshift press to do the job. The top and bottom compressor bolts were then torqued to 18 ft-lbs with a 6mm Allen Head socket.  

During final tightening of the compressor bolts, the bushings are seated in their proper place.

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<Bottom Hinge Bolt Installed>                                                                    <Top Bracket Installed>

The last step was to mount the AC Belt Tensioner to the lower mount.  The mounting hardware provided is two 10M-1.50x50mm Allen Head bolts, SS washers and 17mm lock nuts.  Importantly, custom aluminum spacers are provided for proper alignment with different harmonic balancers.  Bolts were torqued to 28 ft-lbs.

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<AC Tensioner Provided>                                                                          <AC Tensioner Installed>  

I used the spacers for a WS6 LS1 but my ATI Super Damper AC pulley threw a wrench in the gears.  When I checked the pulley alignment, the tensioner was set too deep.  Fortunately, the quick fix was to use the next larger aluminum spacers, and all was well.  Now the belt will ride on the front 4 ribs of the AC compressor pulley vs. the rear 4 ribs.

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<Misaligned Tensioner Pulley>                                                  <Properly Aligned Tensioner Pulley>

I measured the belt length to be 34.5 in. so I’m thinking a 34 in 4 rib belt will do the trick.  I’ll provide an update with the exact belt I end up using.

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<Completed AC Compressor Installation>

Below is a final engine pic with all the accessories in place.  If the starter wasn’t in contact with the header primary, this engine would be ready to install.

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Next up, I finished the engine bay heat shield installation … finally!

Plus, I should have some scoop on the starter issue.
Raymond-P
Raymond-P

Posts : 135
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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty Re: Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap

Post  Hey_Allen Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:43 pm

Since your engine was built from the scratch, do you know how the new AC compressor from DD compares to a stock F-body compressor setup?
I know that the one I have from a 98 Firebird has the AC plumbing coming off the rear of the compressor, instead of the side like your new compressor, but I'm curious just how much difference in physical size they may have.

That said, your build is looking good!
(Mine is still in the parts collection stage, for the most part. COVID shutdown didn't happen, so work/sleep etc...)

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Post  Hotrodz of Dallas Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:00 pm

Hey_Allen wrote:Since your engine was built from the scratch, do you know how the new AC compressor from DD compares to a stock F-body compressor setup?
I know that the one I have from a 98 Firebird has the AC plumbing coming off the rear of the compressor, instead of the side like your new compressor, but I'm curious just how much difference in physical size they may have.

That said, your build is looking good!
(Mine is still in the parts collection stage, for the most part.  COVID shutdown didn't happen, so work/sleep etc...)

The aftermarket ac kit is more compact and the fittings are on the side, so much easier to make hoses for. Plus the factory compressors are meant to only work with the gm ac controls due to how it controls pressures. The aftermarket just relies on the clutch kicking on and off to control pressures, which is how the 944 controls are designed to work.
Hotrodz of Dallas
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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty Re: Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap

Post  Hey_Allen Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:11 pm

I hijacked the AC code from a truck/van application, and fed the ECU a phony pressure sensor reading by way of a resistor grafted into the harness.
High and low pressure switches for safety, wired in where the stock single switch was, and just tying the Porsche AC command to the GM ECU AC request input...

I'm not sure how well it'll work, but from my understanding, it should function with an expansion valve based system.

That said, the side ports would make plumbing it much easier, as you said. I've been eyeing adapters to get the hoses off of the back of the compressor, and the few that I found are $50 just for a 90° adapter block to route them toward the top rear of the compressor.

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Post  Raymond-P Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:52 am

Hey_Allen wrote:Since your engine was built from the scratch, do you know how the new AC compressor from DD compares to a stock F-body compressor setup?
I know that the one I have from a 98 Firebird has the AC plumbing coming off the rear of the compressor, instead of the side like your new compressor, but I'm curious just how much difference in physical size they may have.

That said, your build is looking good!
(Mine is still in the parts collection stage, for the most part.  COVID shutdown didn't happen, so work/sleep etc...)

Hey_Allen... Thanks for the kind words!  I too started with a big box of parts and just kept adding, but unfortunately I never had a stock GM AC Compressor so I can't answer your question.

I do have a lead however on what seems like a decent site for AC Components that I found:
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For more direct results, it was suggested in my forum reference document to do a search on eBay with the phrase:
"BEADLOCK FITTING, 'SHORT DROP' CRIMP ON, FEMALE O RING, 90 DEGREE #8 SB1322SD"

I hope you find the hardware you need.
Raymond-P
Raymond-P

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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty New Heat Shield

Post  Raymond-P Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:15 am

It took a couple hours but I finally got the new heat shield on.   As a reminder, below is the product I used.  I needed two packs ($25 ea.) to do both sides of the engine bay, and each had a 12 in x 24 in piece of material.  The adhesive backing worked quite well.

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<Cool It ThermoTech>                          

Installation was simple but tedious…. establish the desired location, punch any necessary holes, make any necessary cuts, peel off the backing protection, and press into place working from one end to the other.

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<Passenger Side Before>                                                                    <Passenger Side After>                                        
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<Driver’s Side Before>                                                                         <Driver’s Side After>

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<Completed Heat Shield Installation>

Bring on the engine!!
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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty LS Mini-Starter Installation

Post  Raymond-P Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:44 am

Getting closer....

In my post “TPC Motor Mount Bushing Upgrade” I discovered two problem areas after reinstalling the upgraded motor mounts.  They are repeated below:

1. There is a gap between the back flange of the passenger side mounting plate and the new bushing.
2. The header tube is now touching the starter.

Problem Area 1:  This is the only location where there is a misalignment.  Most likely, this gap was not visible with the old urethane bushings because they compressed enough to hide it. There is no front flange gap, and there are no gaps in the driver’s side connection.  I’m leaning toward letting this ride unless someone knows it will be an issue down the road.


Resolution: I removed the header to address the starter issue and then loosened the motor mount connections to the cross-member and the upright bushings (on both sides).  I also removed the engine load with the hoist.  I was hoping there would be a “normalization” of any play that might be causing the misalignment.  Unfortunately, there was none.  Once I torqued all the connections again, (starting with the bushing bolts) I still had the same gap.  Therefore, I’m chocking this condition up to a glitch in the weld-up of the flanges on the passenger side mounting plate.  Kent at TPC advised me that they have already redesigned their motor mount fab jig and welding process for improved fabrication on current offerings.  My plan moving forward is just to keep an eye on it.

Problem Area 2: I’m not exactly sure how the 1/16" clearance I used to have disappeared. but I don’t want to modify the header tube. I would much rather purchase a smaller starter.   Anyone have a suggestion??? The starter I have is the stock 2002 Firebird starter.

Resolution: Thinking back, the 1/16” clearance I thought I had, may have been bogus.  After that measurement, the first time I used my new dip stick to check the oil, I noticed the mounting bracket was loose….and it is held on by a header bolt.  Turns out, all the header bolts were loose, so I torqued them all down (again) to 18 ft-lbs.  Bye bye clearance.  Since the motor mount upgrade and reinstall clearly revealed a starter/header conflict, this confirmed for me that purchasing a smaller starter was the way forward.  Modifying the header primary was not an option at this point.  So…. after some research, I purchased a JEGS LS Mini-Starter for $175, including tax and shipping.  This starter is advertised to be smaller than stock.  To confirm this, I called JEGS for exact dimensions, but they are not really published, so the tech gave me approximate ones from a PowerMaster unit which is very similar.  

Bottom line was I needed to do a test fit.

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<JEGS LS Mini-Starter Package>

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<Comparison with Stock 2002 WS6 Starter>

For all those searching for starter dimensions like I did, below is my documentation of dimensions for both starters:  All dimensions are in inches.

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<Starter Dimensions Table>

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<Dimensions as Shown>

Bolting up the LS Mini was a piece of cake.  I torqued the mounting bolts to 37 ft-lbs as per GM spec and dry mounted the header with NO GASKET.  I now have nearly 1/4” clearance again… although not much at the housing seam overlap.

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<Test Fit Installation Clearance>

Next, I removed the header and pulled the LS Mini off so I could connect the crankshaft position sensor lead from my wiring harness.   This would be a bear with the starter and header installed. Unfortunately, the sensor lead interferes with the solenoid and the starter could not be installed.

The solution was to clock the starter to rotate the solenoid away from the engine.  This can be done on the LS Mini by removing 3 Allen Head bolts that connect the mounting flange plate to the starter motor and rotating the assembly.

BE CAREFUL HERE…The Allen Head bolts are small, require a 4 mm wrench/bit, and are seated very deep in the flange bores precluding use of my 4 mm Allen Head socket.  My first attempt was with a standard 90 deg. Allen wrench.  This was a failure as the short leg of the wrench was just a shade too short to fully engage the bolt.  Because it was tight, the wrench slipped and I managed to slightly round the Allen head.

Next, I tried a 4 mm screwdriver bit combined with a 1/4 inch driver bit that I could turn with a small crescent wrench.  Even with this setup, I had to insert a flat washer fragment in the driver bit so I could maintain enough pressure on the 4 mm screwdriver bit to keep it fully engaged.  This worked… but only on the two undamaged bolts.  For the damaged bolt, the 4 mm bit just would not grip sufficiently.  I desperately tried pounding a long T27 Torx bit into the Allen head using a small hammer.  Thankfully that did work and I got the 3rd bolt out.

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<Allen Bolt Removal Tools>

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<Clocked Starter Flange>

I rotated the starter one hole on the flange plate and reinstalled the Allan Head bolts with some blue Loctite.  I had no way to torque them so “good and tight” will have to do.

Next, I put some heat shield on the starter and remounted it torqueing the new bolts to 37 ft-lbs again as per GM specs.  I ended up removing the bell housing altogether for enough access to check the required gear clearances without standing on my head.  In hind side, I should have done all this when the engine was on the engine stand.

The JEGS installation instructions say the pinion gear clearance with the flywheel is supposed to be within 0.060” – 0.140”, but it was more like 0.190” (3/16”).  This was out of tolerance but I wasn’t overly concerned as most problems are with too little clearance…that’s why they provide a shim so you can move the motor housing back.  

However, pinion gear engagement in the flywheel was now questionable.

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<3/16 Inch Pinion Gear End Spacing>                                                     <Energizing the Solenoid>

To check the pinion gear engagement, I energized the solenoid with my Stanley FatMax portable 12V battery pack.  Positive on the solenoid ignition terminal and negative (ground) on the mounting bolt.  Be careful the positive clamp touches nothing else.

Industry videos target 2/3 ring gear engagement and by my estimate it is 70% so I’m good to go!!

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<~70 % Pinion Gear Engagement>                                            <Gear Tooth Clearance Schematic>

Next, I had to verify clearances between the pinion and flywheel gear teeth. The target side clearance is 0.020” – 0.025” as per JEGS instructions, but this is difficult to measure.   The industry videos, however, call for a 0.030” – 0.035” gear tooth end space (Blue Arrow in pic) which is apparently the size of a standard wire paper clip.  The paper clip I used was 0.032” and it just fit!  Again, good to go.
The JEGS kit includes shims that can be placed between the starter mounting flange and the block to increase the clearance if needed.

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<Gear Tooth Clearance>

Moving forward, I reinstalled the bellhousing and the header (with gasket) and I was expecting great results.   While I gained the starter motor clearance I wanted, clocking the starter has moved the solenoid power terminal such that it’s just touching the header.

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<Final Header Clearance>                                                              <Solenoid Power Lead Contact>

Once again, in hind sight a 360 degree clockable starter would have prevented this problem.

I’m going to apply some heat shield on the solenoid, then try and rotate the solenoid power connection wire, and move on….

I’m so glad I got into this before the engine was in the car… it all would have been 10 times harder.

Good luck with your starter adventures!!!!

Next up… hopefully the ENGINE test fit.
Raymond-P
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Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap - Page 5 Empty Re: Ray's 1987 944 LS1 Build & Swap

Post  Hotrodz of Dallas Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:30 am

Those must be the old style TPC headers. The new ones have a ton of clearance now.
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Post  Raymond-P Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:16 am

Bob,

Yes I believe you are correct.  I'm not surprised that someone encountered this issue before and that the folks at TPC corrected the problem.  Hopefully for me, the bit of heat shield I added plus the advertised heat resistance of the LS Mini will be sufficient to afford a decent started life. I have no other header clearance issues... that I know of.

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<Final Starter Clearance>                                                                      <Final Dip Stick Install>

I got the starter primary lead moved and now I have a minimum of 1/8" clearance between the applied heat shield and the tightest spots.  Plus...I finally got my custom dipstick locked down where I want it.
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