944Hybrids: 924/944/968 and 928 V8 Conversions
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HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

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Techno Duck's LS1 conversion

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Post  Rich L. on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:30 am

Are you using a speedbleeder? I struggled to get a good bleed on my clutch with a pressure bleeder. A speedbleeder made it easier for me to get the air out.

Rich
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Post  Techno Duck on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:49 am

Supes, have not done anything with the throwout bearing yet. If I remember right it was the Dorman made one, someone mentioned a while back they were the best made. I used the C5 vette type bearing also, brand new when installed.

Rich, I have a remote bleed line that has a speed bleeder on it. Lately I have been doing the two person technique though. When I am down at the shop tomorrow for tuning, going to have them vacuum bleed it for me to see if that makes any difference. Maybe just a bunch of air is still hung up.

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Post  Rich L. on Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:56 am

Maybe. That's the only explanation I can come up for my situation too. Good luck with it. I'd hate to see you park it in frustration.

Rich
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Post  Techno Duck on Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:34 pm

Strange, when i parked the car last night it was not possible to shift into reverse. 1st gear was also very difficult to get into.

Idled the car a little while ago in the driveway again, shifting is now fine again. So i guess it is something heat related.

Removed bell housing inspection cover. The two hoses for the throwout bearing look fine, nothing looks out of the ordinary. Travel of the throwout bearing looks fine aswell.

My best guesses are either air still trapped in the slave cylinder, or the clearances are changing as the car heats up. Possibly something involving the pilot bearing, or how the disc sits in relation to the flywheel and pressure plate with clutch fully depressed.

All bolts on the bell housing adapter and torque tube are tight as well.

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Post  944convert on Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:52 pm

Techno Duck wrote:something involving the pilot bearing, or how the disc sits in relation
+1

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Post  Techno Duck on Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:14 pm

Verified also that the throwout bearing has plenty of travel. Had my buddy hold down the clutch and wiggled the clutch disc with a screw driver. Plenty of movement, so i also doubt the disc is getting hung up, even on a warm engine.

Going to swap the old shift linkage rod tomorrow before i head over to the shop for tuning. Other than vacuum bleeding, i am at a loss as to what else it can be.

Should have power #'s tomorrow night, any guesses? LS1, 226/230 cam, TPC long tubes into a single 4", ported throttle body, 36# injectors.

I am going to guess 380whp.

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Post  Techno Duck on Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:27 pm

382whp / 348tq

Dont have the charts yet, hopefully will get a copy next week sometime. Throttle response is much improved. They did not do a baseline pull, so not sure what it was making with just the base tune. Quite a few tweaks were made before the first pull which was 371whp. The tuner thinks it was probably making in the area of 350whp with a very conservative tune with very little timing and very rich.

The basic engine specs...

5.7L LS1
LS6 intake manifold
TPC long tubes into a 4" single exhaust with Magnaflow muffler
Ported throttle body fed with a straight pipe from a C5 air filter
EPS 226/230 cam, 113LSA
36# injectors

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Post  Techno Duck on Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:26 pm

Talked a little to the shop regarding the shifting issues. At this point i am fairly certain the shim needs to be installed with the throwout bearing. The shop primarily works on LSx based cars so i trust their advice. They said every LS equipped car they have ever installed a Spec clutch in required the shim.

Now this got me thinking. Initially i thought the car did not require a shim, as i was getting engagement of the clutch very high up in pedal travel as i have noted previously. Basically the clutch was getting engagement anywhere from 40-80% pedal travel depending what master cylinder i have in the car.

But taking what i noticed regarding being able to stop the car from rolling backwards with the pedal at just 10% travel off the floor, i believe the clutch may be dragging on either the flywheel or pressure plate just enough to keep it spinning and at just 10% travel its dragging enough to stop the car from rolling. This could be caused by not enough travel from the throwout bearing or the disc being hung up on the splines.

I do not believe the splines are the issue though. I can wiggle the disc very easily with someone holding the clutch down using a screwdriver on the edge. Also the assembly was torn down once already, with no problems noted.

Now when the car is cold, the disc friction is minimal. So by shifting into gear its enough to stop the input shaft from spinning to engage a gear. But even with the car just warm, the friction is high enough that the trans cannot slow the input shaft enough to select a gear.

I am going to see if its possible to cut a slot in the shim so it can be slid around the input shaft. Unbolt the slave cylinder and see if the shim can be slid behind the throwout bearing to avoid having to drop the trans, slide back the torque tube..etc again.

Now with that said, it may be possible i can get away with the .7" master cylinder i was originally using. I bet that will move the engagement point higher up also, giving the benefit of a lighter pedal with enagement around 50-60% pedal travel.

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Post  Rich L. on Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:32 am

Great power numbers. Right at the same as mine with a very similar setup.

Good luck getting the shim inserted. It'd be great to slip it in there without major disassembly. I agree that it does sound like you need it.

Rich
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Post  Arthropraxis on Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:57 pm

The shim needs to be measured for proper thickness. Someone here or on LS1.com measured three different slave cylinders and they were all different heights. Each would need a different thickness shim. Contact Spec and ask them what the AB difference should be. I went through all of that with Spec so I understand your frustration.
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Post  Techno Duck on Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:02 pm

Took some more measurements today. With the car up on ramps i had my father hold the clutch pedal down while i observed the movement of the assembly. The throwout bearing has right around .5" of travel which from what i read is enough for good disengagement.

With the front end up on ramps and clutch depressed, the disc was clearly resting on the pressure plate, this is likely the drag i am seeing. With the car level it could very well be dragging on the flywheel also.

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I used feeler gauges to determine the gap between the disc and flywheel. I measured .49" or around 1.25mm gap. Cut that in half and that leaves just .025" or .625mm air gap with the clutch disc between the pressure plate and flywheel.. and that is assuming it sits right in the center!

I looked at another throwout bearing and i am pretty confident i will be able to open the bleeder to prevent any pressure on the TO bearing, unbolt it, then slide the shim underneath it. With the lower inspection cover removed there is plenty of space to unbolt the slave and slide it forward.

Pictured are two Spec .115" thick shims which are normally provided with the clutch kits. One of which i slotted to slide around the input shaft. With this shim installed, it should effectively double the air gap between the pressure plate, clutch disc and flywheel.

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BTW, another thing i noticed today. If i hold the clutch where the car stops rolling backwards and give it gas (10% travel off the floor) the car will roll forward slightly if in 1st gear. This further convinces me the disc is dragging.

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Post  Techno Duck on Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:06 pm

And here is the dyno chart. Quite happy with the power, throw on ported 243 heads and it will probably make over 400whp!

Disregard the AFR reading, we had difficulty getting the dyno to read the Innovate wideband controller output. The tuner just used my in car gauge.

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I am also looking into adding some shrouding on the radiator fan. I have a feeling the car may have trouble maintaining temperature for extended idling during really hot days. This is with the Renegade radiator and one 13" Spal fan. Adding in shrouding should actually be relatively easy, but i will have to move the fan off the radiator some which will require modifying the mounting tabs for it slightly. Probably a project for later in the spring.

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Post  944convert on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:45 pm

Very nice numbers.

I'm still trying to get my head around this clutch disc dragging issue.

Back in February Jon messaged me "The Spec setup sheet says it should be between .175 -.225 inches. If I am looking at what they wrote down correctly, they got .175 inches, so its right on the minimum. This is also assuming they measured everything right..."

Well .175" is pretty close to 5mm which seems to me like a lot of 'space' between the slave bearing and the pressure plate tangs, but I'm no expert.

Moving the slave cylinder closer to the pressure plate with a shim should fix the problem if that is what's dragging the disc.

It would be like adding washers to the PP bolts but between the flywheel and the pressure plate...(which may be easier to do).

The fact that it seems heat related may mean the bell housing and the adapter that the C5 slave is mounted to, is not expanding from heat in the same way as the clutch setup is.

I really hope this fixes it.

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Post  Techno Duck on Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:10 pm

Unfortunately was not able to get the shim in. I could only get the throwout bearing to pull about 1/4" off the adapter plate which is still not enough room to slide the shim in around the bell housing. And this required sliding two metal machinist rulers inbetween the clutch disc and flywheel so the fingers on the pressure plate remained compressed. It was worth a shot atleast.

When i get back next month ill probably bring it somewhere to have the shim put in, i am not willing to waste anymore time on this.

And parked on an incline; nearly impossible to get the car into any gear because the clutch disc is resting on the pressure plate.

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Post  docwyte on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:59 am

If you add a FAST92/92 intake manifold and throttle body you'll be right at 400rwhp. That's what my old setup was.

With ported 243/799 heads you should be closer to 425-435rwhp.

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Post  Techno Duck on Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:13 am

I am more than happy with the 380whp! I was really only shooting for the 350whp range. But it's nice to know it will just take bolt ons to get that coveted 400whp.

Car will be parked for the next 4 weeks or so, arrangements have been made to tear down the clutch assembly again and recheck the need for a shim when I get back.

Still need to remake the oil lines also, likely will end up having this addressed at the shop also. Really lost interest in spending more time on this car.

Hoping to make the first track day at Lime Rock on June 13-14.. Hope the car is ready to go by then otherwise I'll have to get my E36 M3 ready to go.

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Post  Techno Duck on Wed May 28, 2014 5:57 pm

The to-do list before June 13th,

-Install shim for throwout bearing
-Remake all oil lines
-Replace windshield

At the rate things are going i dont think this car is going to be ready in time. Still waiting for some work to be completed on my E36 M3 so i can drop the 951 off. I am debating bringing the 951 to another Porsche friendly shop to have the shim installed. I hate to have yet another shop get involved with this thing but the window to get this car ready to go is down to about two weeks due to me being out of town for 5 days.

I have all of the Aeroquip AN fittings and was going to tackle the oil lines myself this week, but tear down and construction of a new garden shed at my parents place has turned into a bigger project than expected... building a new foundation for it tomorrow  Mad . A 3-day expected project is pushing a week right now  Rolling Eyes .

This car is really a drag sometimes, my time off is too limited to be dealing with a car that constantly needs attention. I really hope this is the last of it. I am getting kind of sick of this thing.

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Post  Lemming on Thu May 29, 2014 6:51 am

As Rosanne Rosannadanna would say "It's always something!"

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Post  docwyte on Thu May 29, 2014 8:46 am

Believe me, I know. I've been fighting the good fight for what, 4 years now with mine? Motor is coming out, again...

Getting very tired of this, losing patience...

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Post  acorad on Thu May 29, 2014 8:48 am

Techno Duck wrote:This car is really a drag sometimes, my time off is too limited to be dealing with a car that constantly needs attention. I really hope this is the last of it. I am getting kind of sick of this thing.

I've been putting off installing a new clutch, TT bearings & trouble-shoot my leaking AC for months now, plus numerous other "while you're in theres."

I know how you feel! Old cars seem to need constant attention.

That said, it's not 1/2 the work that the two race cars I'm involved in require. I'm just happy that I'm not the owner of either of them...

Andy
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Post  Techno Duck on Thu May 29, 2014 5:30 pm

So here is the plan as follows,

When i get home on Thursday the 5th, drop off the 951 for shim installation and pickup my E36 (which at that point will be good to go as the backup for the track day).

Hope to get the car back at the latest monday afternoon. From there the car will go directly to the shop that initially made all of the oil lines to have everything replaced. Also going to have one of the exhaust hangers fixed. Car will hopefully be good to go by Tuesday night.

I am arranging to have the windshield replaced on that following Wednesday.

Its going to be tight, the plan is to drive up to Lime Rock the night before on Thursday the 12th!

I picked up a few extra 90*s and 45*s as i think i plan to have the lines at the cooler rerouted a little. Ill return what i dont use; Amazon Prime is great  Laughing .

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Post  Techno Duck on Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:19 pm

Well i got some not so great news from Thom; the shim was not the smoking gun Sad.

Even with it installed the torque tube still continues to spin with the clutch pedal fully depressed.

Bad pilot bearing, issue with pilot bearing adapter, bent clutch disc or damaged hub? Some ideas we are kicking around.

Ill report back with more info in a few days.

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Post  944-LT1 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:35 pm

I wonder if the clutch hub is riding against the pilot bearing. This happened to me. Had to tear it all back apart and install a thinner pilot bearing.
Heres a picture of the thicker pilot bearing after pulling it out. You can see the bluing from riding along the clutch hub which kept the driveshaft turning (disabling and shifting).
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Post  Techno Duck on Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:30 am

LT1, ive read your thread a few times over the past few months looking for clues that might help me. The bearing i installed was the slightly thinner 15x35x11. The assembly has all been taken down once and everything inspected (this was as the same time my old transmission was toast due to low fluid level) so i dont think its the pilot bearing personally. The clutch hub was also inspected and it is the correct one with no protrusion; this was one of the first things we checked after reading / seeing the pics of the 'bad batch' of hubs on the earlier Spec discs.

Right now i guess the plan of attack will be to tear it down once again and inspect all the components again.

-Pilot bearing
-Pilot bearing adapter
-Torque tube splines causing disc to hang up?
-Clutch disc; possibly bent or otherwise tweaked?
-Clutch disc hub; possibly damaged splines or tweaked?)

One thing i am considering is swapping in a different disc and possibly an entirely different clutch assembly. 944convert happens to have a Spec stage 1 disc i can throw in and if i really wanted to switch it up an OEM LuK LS7 pressure plate.

Pretty bummed out about this, i was really pretty confident it was the lack of shim. I was hoping everything would have worked out to get this car on the track next weekend but it doesn't look like it will happen now. At-least ive got my 'backup' car ready to go.

Anyhow ill give a more detailed writeup the shifting / disengagement issues in a couple days.

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Post  Arthropraxis on Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:57 am

Get a LS7 clutch installed. I swapped one in to reduce down time when I took the Spec Clutch out and could not be happier with it. The pedal is much lighter than the Spec. Light enough that there is no need to use the clutch assist spring. The installation is easier not having to measure for a shim.
The Spec clutch was inspected after removal and was found to be fine. There was light surface rust on the clutch hub splines and TT splines. I think the friction from the rust is what caused my disengagement issues.
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