HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

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For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
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My Porsche LS1 build

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  gt1scca on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:31 pm

Eric is right.
That one was easy...

Mounts are on the way, Luke. I have been back and forth to the ER and physical therapy for my lower back, so my apologies for the delay.

As far as the uprights, you have them installed backward on the crossmember...

The set-back plates were resolved, I thought. You have them installed correctly, and now should see the need to be countersunk. The motor mounts install over the block mounting bolts, so they need to be flush with the plates surface.

Oil filter relocation with the Moroso oil pan requires specific fittings (10 AN) @ the oil pan outlets, so none of the listed kits will work. I have not seen a "kit" that will work with the Moroso 20140, so the fittings and hoses have been put together for a competent solution. There are cheaper alternatives to the fittings listed in the manual, like Mr. Gasket or Summit's brand. The Push-Lok hoses are rated for 250 PSI:

[10 FT.] SUMMIT / SUM-220789-B [ TWIST-TITE 10AN HOSE / BLK. ]
[2 QTY.] SUMMIT / SUM-220703-N [ TWIST-TITE 10AN ST. FTTG. ]
[2 QTY.] SUMMIT / SUM-220713-N [ TWIST-TITE 10AN 90* FTTG. ]
[2 QTY.] RUS-660501 [ 1/2 NPT - 10AN FITTINGS ]
TRANS-DAPT / TRD-1028 [ FITER MOUNT - 3/4-16 FILTER THREAD ]
HP-2004 [ K&N GOLD PERF. OIL FILTER ] HP-2004

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:20 am

you're the best. I hope your feeling better, don't worry about the engine mounts. I have all the dimensions for the setback plates figured out, I just wasn't sure whether they went on the forward set of 4 holes or the back set of 4 holes. Next weekend I'll get around to the countersinking.

I'm 3 hours away from the engine right now so I can't check this, when I cut the corner off of the drivers side setback plate it should clear the alternator mount bracket?

Thanks to everyone,
Luke
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:30 pm

Well, I got the engine into the car. Sort of. I’m really excited just to see the thing sitting there, it looks really good. Click the pictures to see them not cut off on the right.

A couple of other things that are in progress:

The rear torsion bars have been replaced with 29mm units. That was quite the job. I may have to take everything apart again if they need re-indexing. Hopefully the eccentric bolt can take care of any needed adjustments. The old bars will make good steel for blacksmithing tools; my dad took it off my hands. The new bars will give me a rate somewhere around 300 lb/in. Combined with the 440 lb/in fronts I should have one heck of a stiff ride. I’m glad I didn’t decide to go too stiff in the rear though, I want to make sure I can still put the power to the ground. I believe that I’m going to get the helical gear torque biasing diff from 944online. I know what the discussions have been online regarding the TBD units, but for autocross and some street driving I think it’ll do just fine. I will also feel more comfortable putting a good amount of power through a TBD instead of worrying about burning the clutch disks up in a LSD. I’d love to get a LSD from Guard, but that is out of my budget for a few years anyway.

I did get the transaxle back in the car so that I could fit the engine to the torque tube accurately. I’ll have to take it back out when I replace the differential. I purchased a completely solid tranny mount from LR (sorry xschop), looks like a good quality part. I slotted the transaxle cross member so that I had some extra flexibility, I also plan on making a brace to keep the aluminum ear that mounts the tranny to the mount from breaking. One thing that I was worried about was whether I screwed up the internal linkage when I had it apart to install the reinforcement plate; I was relieved to find that the linkage works great and shifting with the car still feels really crisp.

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Before I could test fit the engine I had to modify the oil pan. That went smoothly and I had very little warpage, I clamped the whole deal down to a solid 1.5” plate while I ground and welded. I cut the chunks out of the corners and then cut some pieces of 14 ga sheet to fit back in. Migged the whole thing back together, welded on both sides to help prevent leaks. Unfortunately I got over zealous on the smaller cutout and it kept the oil pickup from fitting so I had to cut it back out. It doesn’t look like it will be necessary anyway. I just covered the hole with duck tape and I’ll re-weld a different piece back in. Just kind of a bummer because it won’t look as nice. I also had to modify the mounting bracket on the pickup as well as modify the windage tray so the pickup would fit. I don’t know if anyone else has had this experience.

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GAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The other odds and ends things that I had to do included countersinking the holes in the setback plates and getting all the miscellaneous hardware together. I used some grade 8 M10 bolts from McMaster for bolting the bell housing onto the engine and then bolting the adapter plate to the bell housing. All that I have to do now is machine the clearances for the clutch lines. I don’t have a clutch yet but I’m going to order one from Greg pretty much right now. Along with some headers, I just sent you an email about that (greg). The engine mounts fit pretty good, but I think there might be a mistake in the drawings for the setback plates. I know we had a big discussion about this, but the third hole in the engine mounts is exactly half way between the other two holes. If you look at the dimensions in the drawings you gave me.

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(4.4063+2.75-5.597+1.75) does not equal (5.597-1.75)

Putting the engine into the engine bay wasn’t a problem at all, I just had to hook up a chain fall from the overhead beam and it all went nice and smooth.

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I have a couple of questions:

1. When the engine was in the bay and lined up to the torque tube I was having an interference problem between the rack housing and the edge of the engine block!! Please help! Can I cut that little nub off and have it fit? The engine uprights I made have a vertical distance of 4.5” not 4.87” as specified in my manual. I thought that we beat this horse well past its death in that other post, did I do something wrong?

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2. I bought a Griffin radiator on sale from Summit, it is the part # recommended in the manual (1-26201-x). What have been people’s approaches for mounting this thing?

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3. I have an interference problem between the setback plates and this bracket that runs to the back of the alternator. I think I may be able to relocate the bracket, but has anyone else run into this?

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4. I remember a thread regarding a special mounting plate for the 944 PS pump on the LS1, but I can’t find it now. Does anyone know what I’m talking about?
5. What are the lead times for the clutch and headers, Greg?


Thanks,
Luke
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  xschop on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:31 pm

Don't apologize to me. I'm bewildered that you have machine equipment and didn't build your own. Besides, good to see someone else build some home-brew. The tranny mounts can be redesigned for the V8-swap as I did. Where the cap head bolt sits on that Lindsay mount is where the mating face sits on the V8 swap mounts now Very Happy

As far as Uprights, all these cars are not built the same, so doing one-off fitment is ideal....good job BTW
You can weld another upright bolt-through on top of the ones already in place and get them at the right angle after you have positioned everything...JAT....cheers
Very Happy
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:20 am

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you're suggesting? Very Happy
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  xschop on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:16 am

You know, I think you may be trying to stick your version of a setback plate in the wrong place on the engine....You may need to bring the 3 isolator bolts holes back some...
Suspect

.Or remake a rear alternator bracket to go to the block hole top left of the plate isolator hole in the last pic.....that should clear the upright.....Your uprights will need to be taller from what I can see.....

I designed the 944 PS pump to LS engines for Truck and F-body accessories & alternator to mount and I don't think you need it, just re-do the alt bracket there......What crank pulley are you using BTW?

Important Q.....With that solid mount, how far is the rear driver's cylinder head from the firewall?
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:25 am

I will have to double check my lay out but I am pretty sure you are too far foward with your mounts. There shouldn't be any problems witht the front hitting them.

They should be like this here,

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I got to run, but I will send you a better picture later.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:24 am

Ok, I don't have a lot of time to reply. I'm at work, I'll post more extensively later.

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  gt1scca on Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:46 pm

Cut the bottom-front angle on the plates and they'll clear.

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:43 pm

I'm not around the car to double check this, but I looked before and they definitely will not clear. I've checked the dimensions on the plates per the drawings you sent me. I'll post more throughly in a little bit.

Thanks guys,

Keep the comments coming, it's really helpful.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:40 pm

OK. Sorry about lack of thread maintenance today

1. Setback plate interference with alternator bracket: Greg, I checked whether cutting the corners from the plates would solve the problem, it didn't look like it would and I checked pretty carefully. Is this a bracket that is on all LS1's or just a specific setup for the GTO? At any rate I'm not too worried about this, as xschop mentioned I can move the Alternator bracket pretty easy.

2. Setback plate location: These are the holes to which i've placed the four flat head bolts for the setback plates. The red circled holes are where the bolts are now, and the approximate locations of the motor mount holes are shown in blue. There is an identical set of four holes squared in yellow, but that is too far aft by my measurements.

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I have not actually bolted the engine to the torque tube so I can't say this for sure but it looks like the engine is located correctly forward and back in the car. This also means I can't answer the question concerning the position of the head to the firewall. I should have these answers by this weekend when I get back home. Shown below are the drawings for the setback plates that I used, I've double checked all the dimensions and they match the plates I made. There is still the anomaly that I pointed out in my latest update.

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3. Motor uprights: Except for the interference shown in the pictures earlier in the thread it looks like the uprights are long enough for the oil pan to clear the crossmember. According to this thread:
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With that said, the new uprights have been shortened 3/8" to reduce spacer thickness. Some cars may not require spacers at all with the shorter uprights. The height dimension you refer to, 4.87", is measured from the TOP of the base-plate, so thickness of the base-plate disc changing to 3/16" along with the 3/8" drop actually is the equivalent of lowering the top tube 7/16". A full 1/2" drop may cause interference at the PS rack, so 3/8" drop is spec'd.

The shortened uprights height dimension changes to 4.50" from the top of the base-plate disc.
This will slightly change the upright angle, and will drastically reduce the amount of spacer required, if any. Only move the passenger side top tube 1.75" rearward if you plan on using AC, and the relocated set-back plate.

and

OK.... I just want to make sure that I've got this right before I go and spend time fabricating.

Since the engine has effectively gotten 7/16" closer to the crossmember (if I shorten the uprights 3/8" and use 3/16" plate) then hypothetically to maintain the same height relative to the hood, spacers of only 1/16" would be required? That's why you said I might be able to eliminate them all together. I have already made 1/2" spacers, 1/4" spacers would help maintain good suspension geometry and overall be better, correct?

So this is what I'll do, tell me if any of my game-plan is incorrect:

1. Replicate the CarShop setback plates shown above, for no AC. I noticed that the new CarShop uprights shown in your last post call for .25" plate, not .5" plate, that does not affect the design of the uprights?

2. Build the uprights shown in my manual, however reduce the 4.87" dimension to 4.5". I realize the geometry problem where I cannot just shorten the pipe 3/8".

3. Use 3/16" bottom plate for the uprights instead of the called for 1/4" plate in my manual

4. Since I am not using AC I will leave all other dimensions shown for the uprights in my manual untouched.

5. Use the shorty urethane engine mounts you sell

6. Space the crossmember, Control arms and sway bar 1/4" to be safe. I'll just mill my current spacers down, but probably wait until I know this setup will work.

7. Cross fingers


these are the drawings for the uprights I used, note that some of the angles I wrote on might not be correct, but I made a jig that was dimensioned as shown:

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Could you carify a bit what you were talking about when you mentioned something about welding on a second stud to the upright, xschop? Could you post better resolution pictures, cfgioja?

Also, for the PS pump ideally I need to use the Porsche unit. So it sounds like I'm on my own for the mounting system, I'll just match the ratio for the pulleys off of the Porsche. I've just got the stock crank pulley on for now, I haven't given it much though yet.

I'm not near my car for measurements yet, and I had to run last weekend before I could really asses the situation. It would just be nice to get a head start on the roadblocks I ran into.

Thanks for all the help, I just wish I could give more back to the forum.

Luke
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:00 pm

Is it a big deal to use the power rack as a manual rack? Anyone done that?
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Arthropraxis on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:07 pm

I am using a 2004 GTO motor. I did some research on the alternator bracket and the consensus was you don't need it. Only the GTO and Holden cars used it.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:54 pm

that was easy then, I'll have to have another look but isn't it a rather important brace to keep the tension in the belt correct? Did you have the same trouble?

Thanks for the tip!
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Arthropraxis on Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:01 pm

I don't have my motor in the car so I can't speak for the belt tension. From what I read on LS1tech, the brace isn't needed, the other LS1 cars such as the F-bodies don't use it from the factory. The only ones that did are the GTO and Aussie cars.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  modenas on Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:21 pm

why did you shorten the motor mounts? it cold be the reason why you dont reach to your motor in the pic
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:56 pm

you can use a power rack as manual, not to complicated aslong as you are moving. The turns are different than a true manual but it still works. just block off the lines on the rack.

And you are using a different mount design than mine, The ones I have came from RH.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:57 am

The motor mounts? I just used the urethane motor mounts from Greg. Do you mean the uprights? Honestly I shortened them from 4.87 to 4.5 just because that is what Greg said was in the new conversion manual and that it worked, it supposedly reduced the amount of spacer needed too.

Would there be any harm in cutting that nub off? It looks like it is there if some accessory needs a mounting hole. If that isn't enough I can simply put some spacers under the upright mounting plate, right?

Thanks a million to everyone hear! cheers
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  cfgioja on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:46 am

No I am talking about the actual mount plates. I just have the standard mounts themselves, just rubber and metal not poly. I have to run to Little rock and my dsl is being slow at the moment so I wil have to get what I have to you later tonight hopefully.

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:57 am

Ok, sounds good. I was responding to modenas about the engine mounts and uprights though.

later,
Ls
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:10 pm

Ok, quick update. I got the engine all bolted to my bell housing adapter and then to the C5 housing. Everything fit great; I’m really relieved that my adapter was made properly. I put a lot of time into that.

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There can be anywhere from .5” to 1” of clearance between the head and the firewall, that’s with the rear cross member slotted. The LR mount seems to be working great. The setback plates and the uprights line up perfectly forward and aft, so I now know those are in the right position. Like it was suggested I’ll see if I can just forgo the alt brace.

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What I’m having a little trouble with now is the vertical position of the engine. I put the hood on and measured how high I could mount the engine without interfering, but the steering rack still hits the oil pan. I have also re-routed the PS lines to get the engine closer to the x member, but I’m going to have to do some more work on the pan no matter what. Unfortunately I think I’ll also have to use some .5” spacers and then make the uprights a little bit taller. This is ok because I’m getting the 19mm ball joints and geometry correction kit from Renn-bay. Can you cut away a little bit of the hood ridges to gain another .5”?

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I have got things to line up a better than what is shown in the picture, but still not great. The picture shows the general direction in which things are off, click to see the other mount (the picture is cropped in the post). The engine is level side to side and so is the car, I don’t know why one side is higher than the other. My uprights are also exactly the same dimensionally (mirror images of each other though), is the cross member or mount holes on the engine not symmetrical?

The only rotational movement the engine will tend to have relative to the crossmember will be the amount that the torque tube flexes. How close can I get to the crossmember without having to worry about hitting it? I’m using the shorty urethane mounts.

I’m also starting to think about the wiring, I’m reading the conversion manual for the third time and focusing on the electrical side of things, but I’m still kind of nervous. Where do people send the ECU for reprogramming and how do you specify what you want done to it? Can you buy your own programmer? Also, I was thinking about making my own gauge cluster, how hard would that be? Do I need extra sensors to run each of the gauges, or can I use the sensors that are already there? It would also be nice to have an old fashion oil pressure gauge in the engine bay when I start it for the first time, is this possible?

Suggestions on the Griffin Radiator install would also be great!
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Arthropraxis on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:29 pm

lt1swap.com has a lot of info on wiring harness schematics, how to wire relays and he has a programming service that is priced reasonably. There is a list of questions for most programmers that you have to answer for them to flash your computer.
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:19 pm

Yes in order for the LS1 to fit properly you have to use .5" spacers on the crossmember, the control arm, and sway bar linkage. This will raise the body off of the crossmember enough to get the engine in. Eric is in the process of designing a fully functioning crossmember with uprights too, but I have not seen a finalized LS1 model posted on his site yet. The spacers should help with your oil pan clearance. I have not ran into a problem runing the spacers on the street, it just is weird to an engineer student to offset the car like that.

As far as the hood ridges, in the middle ridge I made a 2 inch by 1 inch cut to clear the throttle body corner since it was hitting. Do not remove too much or your hood will be unstable and flex alot.

Wiring and harness, there are some places you can buy aftermarket harnesses. I used Speartech, he made a nice stand alone. Painless should have one, and others. The stand alone I have has its own fuel system wired in, all you have to do is connect it to the fuel pump, so thats a plus not trying to route into the stock body setup. I prefer it over the idea of modifying an isisting harness since you never know what shape the wires and sensors are in. I prefer new stuff alot if I can afford it. Plus they have everything labelled and organized to the proper areas.

Ecu can most likely be reprogrammed at a proformance shop, I know again that speartech reprogrammed mine and moved the rev limiter to 6500 with out emissions. RH can do it too. I am sure many companies that make the harnesses ahve the capability to reprogram you ecu. You can reprogram them yourselve with the right equipment and knowledge too.

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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  xschop on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:08 am

You will have to redrill the isolator plates, especially after the .5" X-member spacers. And to fix the passenger side, you can slot the x-member to upright bolt hole laterally which will walk the upright upwards. But really looks like you could chop and reweld a better lateral angle....JAT

Look in my thread and see the wiring diagram for the standalone harness I got from SSP. I have less than $500 in my harness & brain reflash from SSP (Brain was $30 win off Ebay)
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:25 am

Thanks for all the replies! I don't have a much time to respond right now but I wanted to say thanks.

I think I want to modify my own harness, is that foolish and do I need any other components or is it just a matter of rewiring and clipping?

Thanks for the confirm on the hood mod, and slotting the x member sounds good. How much room can you gain from cutting the hood? How close can the oil pan come to the x member without causing problems, aka what is the max rotation of the engine relative to the x member?

Sorry for the hurried reply,

thanks again,
Luke
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Re: My Porsche LS1 build

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