HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

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For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
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944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  944-LT1 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Depending on that plates thickness, you may have to "dent" or modify the area of the drivers side fender well for more clearance for the clutch master cylinder adapters and fittings. Its close as is right now. Shocked

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:48 pm

I'll be test-fitting plate #1 early this week.

.190" thick 6061-T6 Aluminum Plate / ASTM B209
(Steel reserved for weld-on applications...)

There is a contoured area around the clutch MC that may require machining
on the back of the plate...

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  ghostcloak on Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:31 am

How's it coming along?
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  948 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:08 pm

gt1scca wrote:I'll be test-fitting plate #1 early this week.

.190" thick 6061-T6 Aluminum Plate / ASTM B209
(Steel reserved for weld-on applications...)

There is a contoured area around the clutch MC that may require machining
on the back of the plate...

Greg, 6061-T6 is an ok material but not ideal for repeated flexing over time. You could step up to 2024-T6 for increased strength and fatigue resistance.
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:20 pm

Thanks Paul,

Could the (plate) thickness be reduced any with the 2024?
Safety is definitely first, but cost always demands a tight second...

EDIT
: In other words, how do you calculate deflection (?) across a 12" X 8" plate,
at a specific PSI force applied to the face of a specified thickness?
I know Rockwell / Brinnell / Temper specs are needed, and isn't Yield strength
@ the point of failure?

(Not a Metallurgist, BTW... Razz )

Just trying to beep it safe and cost-effective...
(I know - "Dream on SUCKA"... Razz )

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  ghostcloak on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:12 pm

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Some good info here:


2011 Aluminum
2011 is the most machinable of the commonly available aluminum alloys. Machining this alloy can produce excellent surface finishes on your product, and small, broken chips.

Weldability, strength, and anodizing response are all rated as average at best, and this alloy does not have a high degree of corrosion resistance.

If the ability to make your part quickly is important to you, and strength is not the primary desire, 2011 represents a good choice if you're using aluminum.

2011-T3 Aluminum
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 55,000
Yield Strength, psi 43,000
Brinell Hardness 95
Rockwell Hardness B60
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 91.2 - 94.6%
Bismuth (Bi) 0.2 - 0.6%
Copper (Cu) 5.0 - 6.0%
Iron (Fe) 0.7% max
Magnesium (Mg) 2.1 - 2.9%
Lead (Pb) 0.2 - 0.6%
Silicon (Si) 0.4% max

2024 Aluminum
Copper is the main alloying ingredient in 2024. It is very strong compared to most aluminum alloys, and has average machinability, but the copper component of this alloy makes it susceptible to corrosion (many items in this alloy are produced with a clad surface to protect the underlying material.) In addition, 2024 is not considered to be weldable.

Finally, the fatigue resistance of 2024 make it a primary choice when the application is expected to be under stress or strain for prolonged periods. It is commonly used in aerospace applications.

2024-T3 Aluminum
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 70,000
Yield Strength, psi 50,000
Brinell Hardness 120
Rockwell Hardness B75
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 90.7 - 94.7%
Chromium (Cr) 0.1% max
Copper (Cu) 3.8 - 4.9%
Iron (Fe) 0.5% max
Magnesium (Mg) 1.2 - 1.8%
Manganese (Mn) 0.3 - 0.9%
Silicon (Si) 0.5% max

5052 Aluminum
5052 is the alloy most suited to forming operations, with good workability and higher strength than that of the 1100 or 3003 alloys that are commercially available.

5052 is not heat-treatable, but is stronger than most of the 5xxx series of alloys. It has very good corrosion resistance, and can be easily welded. 5052 is not a good choice for extensive machining operations, as it has only a fair machinability rating.

5052-H32 Aluminum
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 33,000
Yield Strength, psi 28,000
Brinell Hardness 60
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 95.7 - 97.7%
Chromium (Cr) 0.15 - 0.35%
Copper (Cu) 0.1% max
Iron (Fe) 0.4% max
Magnesium (Mg) 2.2 - 2.8%
Manganese (Mn) 0.1% max
Silicon (Si) 0.25% max

6061 Aluminum
6061 Aluminum is, by most any measure, the most commonly used aluminum alloy. It is specified in most any application due to its strength, heat treatability, comparatively easy machining, and weldability. If that were not enough, it is also capable of being anodized, adding a layer of protection for finished parts.

The main alloy ingredients of 6061 aluminum are magnesium and silicon.

6061-T6 Aluminum
Physical and Mechanical Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 45,000
Yield Strength, psi 40,000
Brinell Hardness 95
Rockwell Hardness B60
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 95.8 - 98.6%
Chromium (Cr) 0.04 - 0.35%
Copper (Cu) 0.15 - 0.40%
Iron (Fe) 0.70%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.8 - 1.2%
Manganese (Mn) 0.15% max
Silicon (Si) 0.4 - 0.8%
Zinc (Zn) 0.25%

6063 Aluminum
6063 is often called architectural aluminum for two reasons - first, it has a surface finish that is far smoother than the other commercially available alloys, and second, its strength is significantly less (roughly half the strength of 6061), making it suited for applications where strength is not the foremost consideration.

6063 is rated as "Good" for forming and cold working operations, "Excellent" for anodizing, and "Fair" for machining.

6063-T52 Aluminum
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 27,000
Yield Strength, psi 21,000
Brinell Hardness 60
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 97.5% max
Chromium (Cr) 0.1% max
Copper (Cu) 0.1% max
Iron (Fe) 0.35% max
Magnesium (Mg) 0.45 - 0.90%
Manganese (Mn) 0.1% max
Silicon (Si) 0.2 - 0.6%

6262 Aluminum
6262 was designed as an aluminum alloy for operations where significant machining is required. It contains lead and bismuth to help with chip creation and breakage, as well as to partially lubricate the cutting tool. It is generally regarded as having good strength and corrosion resistance. Finished parts can be produced with a high level of polishing.

6262-T6511 Aluminum
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 31,900
Yield Strength, psi 27,600
Brinell Hardness 71
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 94.6 - 97.8%
Chromium (Cr) 0.04 - 0.14%
Copper (Cu) 0.15 - 0.40%
Iron (Fe) 0.7% max
Magnesium (Mg) 0.8 - 1.2%
Manganese (Mn) 0.15% Max
Bismuth (Bi) 0.4 - 0.7%
Silicon (Si) 0.4 - 0.8%
Lead (Pb) 0.4 - 0.7%

7075 Aluminum

7075 is the other "aircraft grade" aluminum that is carried by OnlineMetals. Its principal alloying ingredients are Zinc and copper, which make it one of the highest-strength aluminum alloys that are available. In fact, its typical strength in the T6 temper is higher than most mild steels.

7075 also has average-to-good ratings for machinability, corrosion resistance, and anodizing response. Like 2024, however, it is not considered to be weldable.
7075-T6 Aluminum
Physical and Mechanical Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 83,000
Yield Strength, psi 73,000
Brinell Hardness 150
Rockwell Hardness B87
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 87.1 - 91.4%
Zinc (Zn) 5.1 - 6.1% max
Copper (Cu) 1.2 - 2.0%
Chromium (Cr) 0.18 - 0.28%
Iron (Fe) 0.5 max
Magnesium (Mg) 2.1 - 2.9%
Manganese (Mn) 0.3% max

At OnlineMetals, we all failed shop class. Multiple times. As a matter of fact, our employment applications specifically ask to see people's grades for their high school shop classes. If they're too high, they go into the rejected pile. We're also not engineers, and cannot make any specific recommendations about the suitability of a given alloy, temper, or shape for your project or application.

All technical data is for comparison purposes only and is NOT FOR DESIGN. It has been compiled from sources we believe to be accurate but cannot guarantee. This ends the part of the website that our pointy-headed lawyers made us put in.
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  948 on Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:30 am

gt1scca wrote:Thanks Paul,

Could the (plate) thickness be reduced any with the 2024?
Safety is definitely first, but cost always demands a tight second...

EDIT
: In other words, how do you calculate deflection (?) across a 12" X 8" plate,
at a specific PSI force applied to the face of a specified thickness?
I know Rockwell / Brinnell / Temper specs are needed, and isn't Yield strength
@ the point of failure?

(Not a Metallurgist, BTW... Razz )

Just trying to beep it safe and cost-effective...
(I know - "Dream on SUCKA"... Razz )

I can't say whether the thickness is sufficient to begin with......
Yield is the point at which a material begins to deform plastically.
If we were talking about simple single moment force we could easily calculate the thickness required based on material yield strength, length of moment and force.....However, your plate has several mounting locations and an unknown force applied (Though we could guess ~200Lbs). Send me a DXF or any other print with dimensions and I will look in to getting you some answers.

Regarding cost; if you can prove that it is designed correctly cost should not be an issue.
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  944-LT1 on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:15 pm

Youngs Modulus? Very Happy

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:41 pm

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:47 pm

I may be re-working the firewall reinforcement plate to allow installation of 3 choices of clutch master cylinders:

Factory 944 = 3/4" bore
Wilwood = 3/4" bore
Tilton = 3/4" bore

The 3/4" bore MC is what Tick Performance is using...
The revision may end up as a bolt on adapter plate, depending on bolt spacing differences between the 3 MCs.


Last edited by gt1scca on Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : MC Sizing)

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  944-LT1 on Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:32 pm

Why two different plates? Why not just one plate that has holes drilled for both the 944 mc and the wilwood mc and then plug the un-used holes with plastic plugs. That way, one could swap out later if need be. Just wondering.

Or is this what you meant in your above post greg?

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  ghostcloak on Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:33 pm

Christmas is coming up quickly! Very Happy
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:51 pm

944-LT1 wrote:...Why not just one plate that has holes drilled for both the 944 mc and the wilwood mc and then plug the un-used holes with plastic plugs. That way, one could swap out later if need be...
I haven't checked the mounting flange of the Wilwood or Tilton MC yet...I do remember the Wilwood brake MC had vertical mounting holes, vs. horizontal on the 944 MC. I'm thinking (the 944 clutch master is mounted with studs) they may not be a problem, but you're right. Both sets of mounting holes may HAVE to be included...

I hear Blitzen...
ching, ching, ching...

rendeer

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New Pushrods

Post  gt1scca on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:24 pm

xschop wrote:Because of housing diameter size differences in the plate, you can go fom the Wilwood to the 944 MC, but not the other way around unless you have a large gap and compromised plate strength because of the mounting hole spreadwidth differences...
Not with the latest design.
Just drill and bolt through the MC mounting not being used.
Universal plate, added strength, bla bla bla.
No need to sweat the petty things (or pet the sweaty things...).

Razz

Here is the new pushrod for the clutch MC, lengthened 25mm for the firewall plate thickness. The brake pushrods were so cool, I thought I'd get a few of these made also. The mounting holes for the Wilwood 260-10374 7/8" clutch MC have been added to the plate. A HUGE plus with the Wilwood MC is the fact that it is shorter than the 944 cutch MC, by almost 3/8". No clearance problems that I can see.

(Right click and select "view image")

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Fire up that lathe...

Subtract the 25mm for the stock length clutch pushrod, if not using the .25" reinforcement plate.

santa rendeer rendeer rendeer rendeer rendeer rendeer rendeer rendeer (Rudolf?)

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Firewall Plate Perfected!

Post  gt1scca on Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:52 pm

I now have a .dxf file perfected for the firewall reinforcement plate. The 11 GA. Stainless Steel plate will be universal in application, whether it is installed on a stock 944, used with the Wilwood 260-7563 master cylinder, stock 944 clutch master cylinder, or even the Wilwood 260-10374 7/8" clutch master cylinder upgrade.

For the Wilwood upgrades, minor modifications will be necessary at the 944 factory firewall, such as removing the spot-welded clutch master cylinder studs, and drilling the Wilwood mounting holes. All years have been considered, and the firewall plate may be bolted OR welded on, depending on the condition of the factory firewall. Bolt-on applications will require mounting hole locating and drilling, as the plates do not come pre-drilled. I will, however, supply a template for the bolt-on applications. If your firewall is already cracked, I would strongly recommend welding.

Water-jet scheduling is still a go for Monday, and turnaround is about a week. The Wilwood custom clevis comes with the firewall plate, and a custom brake pushrod for the Wilwood brake master cylinder conversion.

PayPal is setup on 944v8s.com, and this is the fastest part turnaround other than the Manual.
Well, maybe a tie with the VSS Kit (the Reluctor Wheels are being jetted @ the same time, also in Stainless...).

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  ghostcloak on Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:24 pm

Fantastic! I'll be ordering mine soon. Just bought a house and will be closing next month! This will be great so I can get out of the apartment scene and work on the car without worrying about the office coming over and yelling at me Laughing
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:06 am

In consideration of the end user's choice of clutch master cylinder, the drill template will also include both the stock 944 and Wilwood clutch master cylinder bolt patterns. Simply spray-adhesive the paper template to the plate, and drill the relative bolt pattern.

Completely universal.
Bolt-on, weld-on, stock or modified...

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Water-Jetting Some SS Today...

Post  gt1scca on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:36 pm

The plates are being cut, and I have modified the design slightly, thanks in part to a post by Porch. The clutch master cylinder mounting holes have been elongated to allow use of either the 944 or Wilwood master cylinder. Even the brake lines have been compensated for. I had a clear Lexan plate cut for test-fitting, and the plate fits perfectly on both the '87 NA and '86 Turbo cars used for development.

Here's the template...

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To use the Wilwood 260-10374, remove the factory mounting studs, bolt the plate in place, and bolt up the Wilwood MC.

For the early cars, I still need (3) dimensions, shown in the pic below...
(Dimension #3 is the diameter of the hole that I circled).

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I don't have access to an early car, and any help will be greatly appreciated.

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  Admin on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:56 pm

Do you need me to ship you an early model fire wall? I can cut it out of my parts car. It getting close to the scrap yard anyway.

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:54 pm

I see you grabbing my picture. You need me to try and measure that for you?
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:54 pm

cfgioja wrote:You need me to try and measure that for you?
Would be nice...
and would save E (or me) some shipping.

Thanks.

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:57 pm

If the weather is not too bad tomorrow, Oklahoma is suppose to have ice and snow and cold stuff, I will go out there and see what I can do.

I am going to have to take the brakes stuff apart but the car is not moving at the moment anyway. I will let you know how it goes.
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Backup Plan

Post  gt1scca on Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:11 pm

Hey Eric,

I'll pay the shipping on second thought...
Probably make another donation, also.

Send me that firewall, and I'll have 2 references.
How's that?

When the early (pre-'85) version is verified, the plate will be 100% universal.

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  cfgioja on Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:15 pm

You sure, I dont mind. I just wanted to warn you thta the weather is suppose to turn ugly
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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

Post  gt1scca on Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Measure yours also, if you don't mind.

The one hole I circled is just what I can see as being different. With the actual firewall in hand, I can bolt-up the template to verify everything else. As an example, there are 1-2 slight differences between the '87 NA and '86T that had to be combined on 1 plate. If the differences in the early car firewall can at least be added to a drill-template, 1 universal plate is still possible.

We made the C5 bellhousing universal...No reason other parts can't be.

And, two means of verification are always better than one...
Right?

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Re: 944 Firewall Reinforcement Plate

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