HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Spring Rates

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Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:52 pm

Hey guys,

I have a question about the optimum spring rates for a converted car. Obviously this question is relative, but I plan on getting into some autocrossing etc. I also would like a fairly stiff suspension. If I want a really comfortable ride I'll take a different car. I don't have a enough money to buy a full set of coilovers. Thanks to gt1scca I found the coilover conversion kit from ground control

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=77/CA=219.

I think I will use those for the front, I bought the car with new Koni shocks. I hope those will provide enough damping for a fairly stiff spring. What spring rate should I get for those? Is 300# too high? If I get something in that range what would be a good torsion bar for the rear? I still don't understand why the effective rate doesn't seem to have any bearing on the diameter of the bar???? For example, according the the conversion manual, the 26mm bars have a 335# rate, while the 30mm have a 175# rate. I feel that getting stiffer springs all around is better than putting on even stiffer sway bars (although that obviously doesn't help with the extra weight), currently the bars are 24mm front, 18mm rear.

Thanks guys, I'm loving this forum more and more. I really appreciate the help.

Luke
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Spring Rates

Post  Max Energy on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:42 pm

Luke,
Contact Jason at Paragon Products they work alot with Koni shocks and 944 suspension
Max
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:40 am

Great, thanks for the info. I'll call them up on Monday.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Dawgz83948 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:08 pm

Max Energy wrote:Luke,
Contact Jason at Paragon Products they work alot with Koni shocks and 944 suspension
Max

Ground Control ONLY uses Koni. Give Jay a call and he will help you too. Paragon is a bunch of ArseHoles unless you have anything other than a Turbo 944 with a Turbo motor.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:21 pm

Dawgz83948 wrote:
Max Energy wrote:Luke,
Contact Jason at Paragon Products they work alot with Koni shocks and 944 suspension
Max

Ground Control ONLY uses Koni. Give Jay a call and he will help you too. Paragon is a bunch of ArseHoles unless you have anything other than a Turbo 944 with a Turbo motor.

I'm a little confused Embarassed You're saying to call Jason at Paragon Products even though you say they're not very accommodating to anyone besides a pure Porsche owner? You don't think they would be very helpful with figuring out springs for a converted car? Or is Jay a different guy with Ground Control? The ground control people seemed good simply because I already own a set of Koni shocks.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Dawgz83948 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:10 pm

Luke714 wrote:
Dawgz83948 wrote:
Max Energy wrote:Luke,
Contact Jason at Paragon Products they work alot with Koni shocks and 944 suspension
Max

Ground Control ONLY uses Koni. Give Jay a call and he will help you too. Paragon is a bunch of ArseHoles unless you have anything other than a Turbo 944 with a Turbo motor.

I'm a little confused Embarassed You're saying to call Jason at Paragon Products even though you say they're not very accommodating to anyone besides a pure Porsche owner? You don't think they would be very helpful with figuring out springs for a converted car? Or is Jay a different guy with Ground Control? The ground control people seemed good simply because I already own a set of Koni shocks.

I called Paragon to ask a suspension question and they were helpfull, until they asked what car I had, then they became remote and less helpfull especially when they found out that I was installing a V8. Jay works at Ground Control, not Paragon. But do whatcha want.....

Also I did not recommend you call Paragon, someone else did......
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Spring Rates

Post  968gene on Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:03 pm

You might also want to call Pete at RS Barn. He has always been very helpful and really doesn't care what you are using to make pollution. I would start with knowing your four corner weights and what your budget is.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:29 pm

Dawgz83948 wrote:
Luke714 wrote:
Dawgz83948 wrote:
Max Energy wrote:Luke,
Contact Jason at Paragon Products they work alot with Koni shocks and 944 suspension
Max

Ground Control ONLY uses Koni. Give Jay a call and he will help you too. Paragon is a bunch of ArseHoles unless you have anything other than a Turbo 944 with a Turbo motor.

I'm a little confused Embarassed You're saying to call Jason at Paragon Products even though you say they're not very accommodating to anyone besides a pure Porsche owner? You don't think they would be very helpful with figuring out springs for a converted car? Or is Jay a different guy with Ground Control? The ground control people seemed good simply because I already own a set of Koni shocks.

I called Paragon to ask a suspension question and they were helpfull, until they asked what car I had, then they became remote and less helpfull especially when they found out that I was installing a V8. Jay works at Ground Control, not Paragon. But do whatcha want.....

Also I did not recommend you call Paragon, someone else did......

Great, I appreciate the heads up. I think I'll call Jay at Ground control first. I realize you didn't tell me to call paragon. Very Happy I expect I'll end up calling all three suggested places eventually though. Thanks for all the advice, it'll give me a good place to start learning more. Smile



My budget is fairly low, that is why I think I'll stick with the Koni's that I have, add the coilover conversion kit to the front and stiffen the torsion bars in the rear. What is the typical total weight and its distribution over the four wheels of a LS1 swap? I'll probably find that out when I call around Monday....
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Porch on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:01 pm

I just recently put 250# springs/bars in and i couldn't be happier. I have heard that 300# is reasonable too. I went with Weltmeister 250# fronts and 28mm rear sway-aways.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:24 pm

Porch wrote:I just recently put 250# springs/bars in and i couldn't be happier. I have heard that 300# is reasonable too. I went with Weltmeister 250# fronts and 28mm rear sway-aways.

Good to know. It seems like all of these spring rates are a little on the light side relative to a lot of other cars. I know that my car has less that 250# on the front, and it doesn't seem at all soft. However, my friends BMW is only 200lbs heavier and comes with something like 450# stock up front and 350# rear??????

Can somebody explain the relation between the rear torsion bar diameter and the effective spring rate? I still haven't been able to find an answer, however I think I'll ask that when I do my calling around tomorrow. I might call summit about the torsion bars too.
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"'Quote me on this..."

Post  gt1scca on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:26 am

Luke714 wrote:
Dawgz83948 wrote:
Luke714 wrote:
Dawgz83948 wrote:
Max Energy wrote:
Whew...

Glad I dodged all that.

Can I quote you on that?

Spring, Sprang, Sprung.

Woop, Woop.

gt1scca wrote: Razz

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Spring Rates

Post  Max Energy on Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:26 am

Gentlemen,
I am the person that suggested speaking with Jason at Paragon. Jason has always been great to work with and a very knowledgable about 944 Suspension. I wish I could help you with your spring request question, but I have Motons all around along with the torsions removed. I typically have 450# up front and 650# in the rear and have gone to as high as 650# in the front and 800# in the rear. This car is used for 90% track/10% street.
Additionally if you had a Turbo car the LS converstion should be very comperable in weight.
Sincerely,
Max
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  gt1scca on Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:18 am

I guess I'm the only one that was humored by that ^.
(U know, da quotated thang-a-ma-bob...)

Eh, forget 'bout it.

Back to the Sprang-A-Lang...

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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:41 pm

gt1scca wrote:I guess I'm the only one that was humored by that ^.
(U know, da quotated thang-a-ma-bob...)

Eh, forget 'bout it.

Back to the Sprang-A-Lang...

Oh, no. I was the one that posted that and I'm now in a waiting room full of people laughing like a fool. Laughing

It's good to know that the turbo is very comparable in weight. So it sounds like you generally seriously beef up the springs, more than the minimum that is suggested in the conversion manual.

Thanks for all the help guys
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  gt1scca on Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:30 pm

I tried to maintain the "conservative" approach in the manual. Excessive (i.e. "Race") springs on a street car would get old quick, and all I would be hearing is "It's in The Manual"...

(Yet another reason for a full-page disclaimer...)

Razz

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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Porch on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:53 pm

Luke714 wrote:
Porch wrote:I just recently put 250# springs/bars in and i couldn't be happier. I have heard that 300# is reasonable too. I went with Weltmeister 250# fronts and 28mm rear sway-aways.

Good to know. It seems like all of these spring rates are a little on the light side relative to a lot of other cars. I know that my car has less that 250# on the front, and it doesn't seem at all soft. However, my friends BMW is only 200lbs heavier and comes with something like 450# stock up front and 350# rear??????

Can somebody explain the relation between the rear torsion bar diameter and the effective spring rate? I still haven't been able to find an answer, however I think I'll ask that when I do my calling around tomorrow. I might call summit about the torsion bars too.

Stock springs around around 150# on these cars, if i remember correctly... With 250# all around it gets a little irritating on rough roads. If you look at the torsion bars at places that sell it they'll tell you the effective spring rate. 28mm = ~250# and i think 30mm = ~300lbs. After that you typically start adding springs to the rear shocks.

If you plan to do a torsion bar upgrade i would highly recommend the elephant racing poly-bronze bushings ($$), a lot of people here complained about the delrin bushing squeaking and binding!
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:08 pm

gt1scca wrote:I tried to maintain the "conservative" approach in the manual. Excessive (i.e. "Race") springs on a street car would get old quick, and all I would be hearing is "It's in The Manual"...

(Yet another reason for a full-page disclaimer...)

Razz

Haha, yeah. Understood. I don't think I'll get too caried away, but probably stiffer than 250#. I didn't have time to call anyone today, it was the first day of the semester and there were a million little things to do. study
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Porch on Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:27 pm

On rennlist they all recommended 300# in the front and 250# in the rear for a daily, FWIW.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:35 pm

I only called automotion about the torsion bars today. The guy I talked to said that the larger diameter bars always equate to a higher spring rate. He wasn't able to get any numbers for sure, but he didn't agree with the numbers listed in the conversion manual. It is possible he didn't know what he was talking about.... Where did those spring rates in the manual come from?
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Porch on Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Here's the company that made mine:

http://www.swayaway.com/TechRoom_VWguides.php

First column is diameter, LAST column is the 944:
22 mm 106.44 98.03
23 mm 127.15 117.11
24 mm 150.74 138.84
25 mm 177.48 163.47
26 mm 207.63 191.24
27 mm 241.46 222.4
28 mm 279.27 257.22
29 mm 321.36 295.98
30 mm 368.03 338.97
31 mm 419.61 386.47

I don't know what the manual says, but what i pasted above is pretty much what i've seen everywhere else.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:26 am

Porch wrote:Here's the company that made mine:

http://www.swayaway.com/TechRoom_VWguides.php

First column is diameter, LAST column is the 944:
22 mm 106.44 98.03
23 mm 127.15 117.11
24 mm 150.74 138.84
25 mm 177.48 163.47
26 mm 207.63 191.24
27 mm 241.46 222.4
28 mm 279.27 257.22
29 mm 321.36 295.98
30 mm 368.03 338.97
31 mm 419.61 386.47

I don't know what the manual says, but what i pasted above is pretty much what i've seen everywhere else.

Superb!! That is exactly what I need, I haven't been able to find that anywhere else! I think you may have mentioned the name swayaway before but I thought it was relating to just sway bars and didn't look. Embarassed
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:31 pm

For street/some track stuff Ground control recommended something between 380#-440# for the fronts. Those coilover conversions use really nice Eibach springs, so I can get whatever rate I want. Maybe 400# in the front, 330ish in the rear. I guess I'll just go with what sounds pretty good and tweak things once it's on the road, it'd be nice (and cheaper) to get it right the first time through but I don't want to get too caught up on the little details. After all I have a lot of work to do. Shocked

Thanks for the help!
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Porch on Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:58 pm

Wow, that's pretty stiff! You might want to check over on rennlist first to find some people who are actually running those rates. I wouldn't want that stiff for a daily!!
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  eclou on Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:06 am

keep in mind a full set of Leda coilovers custom valved and sprung to your needs can be ordered from Karl at Racer's Edge for just over a K. I tracked my car with those for many years before upgrading to Motons.
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Re: Spring Rates

Post  Luke714 on Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:59 am

Hey guys,

I know this is an old thread, but I figured it was better to keep adding to it rather than start from scratch! Smile

I ended up going with the 440#F and 300#R. I've got an '86 951 with the M030 option. Adjustable koni's in front with ground control coilover conversion. 29mm sway bars in rear with the stock koni yellows.

On rennlist everyone seems to have a stiffer spring in the back, Jay had advised me on my current rates (I need to call him back). It seems like a lot of people here are running softer in the rear, is this for traction reasons with the extra power? I'm interested in hearing the various spring rates and sway bar setups people are running for auto-x and street driving (not necessarily daily driver comfort though).

I think I need a little extra spring in the back, but I don't want to go overly stiff and then have problems putting the power down. Also, I currently don't have the sway bar mounted in the rear because up until very recently I had an open diff. Before I up the rear spring rates I bet putting the swaybar back might keep the body roll under check well enough while letting the car sit back on in haunches on acceleration. I've also noticed that not running the rear sway bar has given me some understeer problems. Do folks think that the rear swaybar will be enough to counter this or do I really need extra rear spring or higher rear damping rates. I'm definitely going to do a rear torsion bar delete by using ground control's kit, and don't know if I should mess with my spring rates or not while I'm in there. Advice would be great!

Thanks,

Luke
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