HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

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Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:43 am

Hey guys a little background on the car. I believe I'm the third owner of the 86 na "project". First guy installed the drive train with a Renegade kit. Second did some misc. work. And now me. Went to start it yesterday and the starter just spun. I thought I had a bad solenoid until I did an inspection. The bendix of the starter doesn't reach the flywheel. From what I can tell the motor has a cast iron 6.0 block. The starter was off of a 2000 corvette. I went and purchased a truck starter because of truck block and the same thing. I either need a starter with a longer nose. Or the flywheel/crank is not spaced correctly and needs to come apart. I fear the later option. Since I did not do the install I don't know how it was put together. Any help would be appreciated.

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fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:49 am

Hmmmm. Having just installed my flywheel and starter, your flywheel looks to be sitting out too far. Some automatic transmissions require a flex plate spacer depending on whether a dished or flat flex plate is used. Any chance the previous owner left the spacer on the crank then installed the flywheel?

chrenan

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:32 am

At first I thought what I'm looking at in the second picture is a spacer against the flywheel. Not real familiar with LS motors but doesn't the crank come out just 1/4" past the seal? I should see a line or groove where the spacer meets the crank. My seal covers what i think is a spacer.

fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  sharkey on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:57 am

chrenan wrote:Hmmmm.  Having just installed my flywheel and starter, your flywheel looks to be sitting out too far. Some automatic transmissions require a flex plate spacer depending on whether a dished or flat flex plate is used.  Any chance the previous owner left the spacer on the crank then installed the flywheel?

your bang on there. the engines that were mated to a 4l80e from factory used a crank spacer thats roughly 1/2" thick. this was not run with any other transmission (from factory) and is never used with a flywheel for a manual transmission.

it looks like that spacer is in there. it will also cause issues with the slave cylinder. looks like your gonna have to pull the engine or the trans and torque tube.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:42 pm

A few crank pics from my build for reference...

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:53 pm

Thanks for the replies. I kind of figured that. Just hoping for a simple fix. One question though. Should't I be able to see the chamfer on the end of the crank where the spacer mates to it? It's smooth from the seal to the flywheel.

fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:10 pm

That is curious. Also it may be worse news, sorry.

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From the link:

"Be careful! The early ’99-‘00 6.0L LS truck engines used a 0.400-inch longer crankshaft flange to bolt a specific flexplate directly to the 4L80E automatic transmission. This extended flange makes mating these LS engines problematic if a manual transmission is planned since it requires a custom flywheel."

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:25 pm

I'm starting to see why I'm the 3rd owner of this project. So I checked with the local parts store just in case. I can get a new conversion flywheel for around $350. If I do this will the spacing work out for the slave? Should Not affect the clutch and torque tube. Correct?

fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:45 pm

I'm not sure on that one, I'm out of my LS comfort zone with that question, but one of the guys here will know, lots of experience and keen eyes here.

$350 in parts to correct it wouldn't be too bad. Look on the bright side, you're already way ahead of the previous owners who somehow put that together without noticing in the starter couldn't possible engage the flywheel. Nice catch!

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  sharkey on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:41 pm

i forgot about the early 6.0l having a longer crank, thats more what it looks like is going on. i looked up these motors and they would have had cast iron heads from factory. that would be the 100% telltale sign on what year the engine is (if they havent been swapped).

im not sure on the conversion flywheel. if you are able to return it if it doesnt work, i say its worth a shot. either way the car has to come apart.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  sharkey on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:53 pm

i dug around a little more and found this flywheel

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under application it lists only 99-2000 6.0l. further, every other ls flywheel from mcleod listed on summit specifically say "will not fit 99-2000 6.0l with .400" longer crank". i think this is what you are after

sharkey

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:37 am

I think the McLeod flywheel PN 460537 will solve my starter problem. Not sure about the slave cyl that's in the back of the bellhousing. The ring gear might be moved forward the .400" with the new flywheel but everything else might be still back the .400". I could counter that with a spacer between the bell housing and the block.Then something else would have to give that amount. When I get time I'm calling McLeod. Since I did't put this together any tips on removing the clutch? I'm guessing the motor or the trans will have to come out. What about dropping the rear suspension and lowering the torque tube at an angle and slide it under the trans?

fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:38 am

fantic wrote:What about dropping the rear suspension and lowering the torque tube at an angle and slide it under the trans?  

Won't work for quite a few reasons, you'll see when you take a closer look. Having done this many times on Porsche transaxle cars over the last 15 years, the quickest path to the clutch is to drop the transmission, then remove the transmission mount cross member so you can slide the torque tube back as far as possible. You'll have plenty of room to attack the clutch then. If you've never done it before it takes an afternoon on jack stands at a leisurely pace to get access to the back of the engine this way.

chrenan

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:50 am

First of all thanks for the replies. Just called McLeod and the ring gear on the 460537  is moved forward .400". The face of the flywheel will be the same as a standard one. So I will have to adjust the bellhousing or the slave the same distance somehow to get the right amount of travel on the clutch. Luckily I have a lift and some strong boys to help with the trans. Below is a pic of the engine in the car the way I bought it. I knew it had a iron block. Guessed 5.3 or 6.0. I'll keep you updated because I know  somebody else will run into this and need a fix.

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fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  sharkey on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:40 pm

if the slave cylinder is an issue what you might be able to do is run an 05-11 mustang v8 slave. they are the same mounting base as the gm slave, but they will collapse further than the gm slave. im running one in my swap (ecotec 4 cyl) and it works great. ive also used them with twin disc clutches in gm cars.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:32 pm

Tell me more. Just looked at the car and was planning to build a 3/8" ring to go between the torque tube adapter and the bellhousing to move the slave back. And to keep the tube in the same spot make new motor mount brackets to move the engine forward 3/8".

fantic

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  sharkey on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:05 pm

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thats a pic of it on my bellhousing adapter. a clutch company i used to deal with at my shop actually sells these things with their twin disc ls clutch kits claiming its their own design, i later found out its just 05-11 mustang. i cant remember the numbers, but im pretty sure fully compressed it was at least 1/4" shorter, if not more. it also extends further. its the same mounting pattern as an ls t56, so the same as the corvette slave cyl most people use. a couple minor problems it does present is the port on it is an odd metric bubble flare, m12x1.0 thread iirc, but it does come with a short steel line, so i harvested the tube nut and used 1/4" brake line to make a hard line that came out of my bellhousing. the other thing is it has no port for a bleeder, you can either run an inline bleeder setup, or just crack the line loose and let the air out, pump the clutch, crack the line, etc till its bled. it wasnt too much of an issue to do that way.

you may also be able to machine the torque tube adapter to fix it. your really just going to have to do a bunch of measuring once you get the new flywheel in there. theoretically if the new flywheel just has the ring gear moved, the flywheel face should be in the same as a sbc or lt1 (from what i read, the .400" longer crank puts the crank face in the same exact position as the sbc). maybe have a look at what the lt1 guys have done. i recall a thread here not long ago about an lt1 swap having clutch hangup problems and machining the torque tube adapter to correct it.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  erioshi on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:51 am

As a painful alternative, you might consider sourcing a crankshaft of the correct length.  It would be more work up front, but long term would move you away from needing a custom flywheel and throwout bearing.  The effort might be worth the long term payoff in being able to standardized swap components, both for you and potentially for resale as well.
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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:56 pm

I thought about the crank but I think I can make it work with the flywheel. I have a stock 5.3. Strangely this is not a bad deal. A problem solving exercise for my two teen age sons. I installed a lift in the pole barn and for the last 4 years I have been buying project cars in the winter to keep them occupied. We built a 383 stroker and T56 put in a 77 vet. 79 FJ 40 land cruiser. Last year a 03 GMC pickup with a Duramax. Nothing makes me happier than working out in that barn with my two boys.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:19 am

Ok I have it all apart. Probably a blessing. Only had two bolts finger tight holding the bellhousing on. Was't bad except I keep fighting the ears on the TT. What are those for? Can they be cut off? Anyway the McLeod 460537 Bolts right up. All of the dimensions are the same as stock other than the ring gear is moved .400" towards the motor.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:00 am

Ok now onto the pilot bearing. I thought because the crank was out .400" the bearing would be moved in the same the other way. So since the faces of the flywheels are the same the spacer is the same? Mine sticks out .422". With the flywheel on the bearing is about .125" back from the face of the flywheel. I put it back together without the clutch to see what it looks like. What do you guys think? What should this distance be? I havn't got to the throw out bearing yet. I do know that the adapter is around .625". Looks like the bearing is machined into it about a quarter of an inch. Havn't measured yet.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  chrenan on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:14 am

fantic wrote:Was't bad except I keep fighting the ears on the TT. What are those for? Can they be cut off?

They "hook" the torque tube to the torsion bar carrier and stop the entire engine/torque tube/transmission drive train assembly from shifting too dramatically within the uni-body in a front or rear collision.

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:57 am

Now onto the slave cly. Mounted the clutch and bellhousing. With the slave on the adapter plate I pushed it in the bellhousing till the slave bottomed out. There was about a .375" gap. When I bought it I guess it came with that much preload on the clutch. I know some clutches will move the fingers back as they wear. So I made a .500" spacer. Took off the clutch and adjusted the shaft in the pilot bearing. Reassembled everything. One thing that I was concerned about was the splines and the coupler. The front bolt barely didn't fit. You could just see part of the splines looking in the front coupling hole. I ran a 3/8 drill bit in there for a split second to open it out. Everything else bolted right up. Hopefully the boys will be able to start it this week.  

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  matty89 on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:06 am

whats ur TT end in the Pilot bearing depth ? it looks to be alot inside the bearing ?

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Re: Starter-Flywheel Alignment Issue

Post  fantic on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:22 am

That picture was taken before I made the spacer. I don't have the numbers with me but I think the shaft was moved back about 10 mm. The shaft and bearing were still making full contact.

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