HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Mercedes m112

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Mercedes m112

Post  willdood on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:55 pm

I have an 84na that's been parked for a few years and I've been eyeing the ls1 swap for over a year now but haven't had the time or money to get started yet. I've been thinking "Chevy can't be the only one that makes an aluminum block that would be a viable swap." So after a bit of research I discovered the Mercedes engine that is in the Chrysler crossfire is also an aluminum block. Though it has less horsepower than the ls1 it is much easier to come by at a low price (it also reduces my fear of detonating my transmission supposing I stick with the na initially).

So, has anyone seen or heard of this being swapped into a 944? Without an existing swap kit, what would one need? Obviously motor mounts, some kind of bell housing adaptor, and...? Most importantly, how do you decide if it's viable? Is it a simple matter of the engine being small enough to set on the bay or are there other factors like the drive line location?

For the record I have never done a swap before (unless you count moving an na from one 944 to another). Most of my experience is in basic car maintenance and repairs.

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Re: Mercedes m112

Post  Hotrodz of Dallas on Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:11 pm

willdood wrote:I have an 84na that's been parked for a few years and I've been eyeing the ls1 swap for over a year now but haven't had the time or money to get started yet. I've been thinking "Chevy can't be the only one that makes an aluminum block that would be a viable swap." So after a bit of research I discovered the Mercedes engine that is in the Chrysler crossfire is also an aluminum block. Though it has less horsepower than the ls1 it is much easier to come by at a low price (it also reduces my fear of detonating my transmission supposing I stick with the na initially).

So, has anyone seen or heard of this being swapped into a 944? Without an existing swap kit, what would one need? Obviously motor mounts, some kind of bell housing adaptor, and...? Most importantly, how do you decide if it's viable? Is it a simple matter of the engine being small enough to set on the bay or are there other factors like the drive line location?

For the record I have never done a swap before (unless you count moving an na from one 944 to another). Most of my experience is in basic car maintenance and repairs.  
Welcome to the forum.

Its doubtful anyone has done this conversion. A lot of different engines have been tried. Some successful, some not.
The main problem you're going to run into, is that the expense to develop all new parts to make the Mercedes engine work and fit in the car, will far out way the cost to do the tried and true LS engine swap. If cost isn't an issue, then the next problem will be, is it physically small enough to fit in the engine bay? Are there accessories that will fit on the engine that will clear the hood and steering?

There are many more factors than that to consider, but those are the main ones.
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Re: Mercedes m112

Post  sparkydog on Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:27 am

I think that motor is in my wife's E320 wagon and I am impressed with it's power and torque for a V6.
Looking at some pictures of it just now I would say that you MIGHT have the classic fit challenges of:
1) heads/exhaust manifolds into the 944's very narrow space between strut towers. (But the towers can be shaved for clearance - there is a modest amount of room behind them in the wheel well.)

2) the m112 oil pan is shaped to "droop" over the front of their cross member. This will either be the perfect thing for the 944 or the worst. (It's been a long time since I had my 944 stock cross member that I can't remember where it goes relative to the strut towers.)

3) low mount alternator on  the right side may not fit between the 944 frame horns.

You are right to be cautious about doing this kind of 1-off swap. But if you like solving problems and treat it as a hobby then maybe it's in your wheelhouse. But Hotrodz is correct - this is going to be a big challenge for you or anybody else. Solving the two big areas of getting it to fit into the teensy engine bay and then adapting it into the 944 torque tube.
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Re: Mercedes m112

Post  sharkey on Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:34 am

the biggest thing you need to figure out is the potential problems and if you have the means to fix them. as sparkydog already said, bellhousing, oil pan clearance, and exhaust clearance are the big things, however you also have to consider clearance for the brake master cylinder, what your going to do for a clutch, and with this engine, what your going to run for engine management. to me engine management would be the first thing id look into, see if its even possible to run the factory ecm as a stand alone unit, or else what aftermarket solutions there are. i wouldnt think there would be many, i cant say ive even heard of this engine being swapped into anything before. same thing with clutch and flywheel, a custom clutch isnt a big deal, but did this engine come with a manual in any application? a custom flywheel can be expensive.

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Re: Mercedes m112

Post  willdood on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:11 pm

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Sounds like it will be more work than I have time for.

The real issue is my wife says I have to sell my spare 944 parts to fund a swap. My Fuchs were the only thing that was easy to get rid of and make any money out of then. I haven't had time to start working on a swap yet so I find myself exploring the possibilities of cheaper power plant options.

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Re: Mercedes m112

Post  erioshi on Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:02 pm

If you are finding real LS1 / LS6 engines too expensive, and are willing to search and wait finding good deals on craigslist and elsewhere, then you may be able to save some money with a GM truck engine swap.  They are very similar to the car engines of the same periods (Gen 3, Gen 4), and both iron and aluminum block choices exist.  In reality, the actual weight difference between the two will be almost negligible when compared to the weight of the entire car.

A basic iron block GM vortech truck engine typically sells for less than an aluminum car or truck engine, and the 5.3 engines are everywhere for very low cost.  You will loose a bit of power by going this route, but if you keep the basic engine stock, you should be able to find an engine with close to 300 hp for a very low price.

For what it is worth, I am using an aluminum truck engine for my swap, but did not follow my own advise below.  My goals involve more power than you, and my swap is less constrained by my budget.

First some general thoughts:

You might want to start by finding a truck engine that includes the intake system and preferably matching engine wiring harness and computer.  Many places will call this a "drop-out" and usually comes with all the under hood parts needed to make that engine run.  A good source will include things like the starter.  You might pay a bit more for a drop out, but may save money over buying and engine then buying a wiring harness, computer, etc.

As an alternative, try putting together a parts list and call some yards to price out the individual components.  Where I am located a drop-out was almost half the cost of individual components, but it does depend on your local market.

One thing you should research is the truck 3 bolt cable (not drive by wire or DBW) throttle body.  I recall seeing swaps here that have been able to use the truck cable throttle body, but you should verify this.  If it will work then look for an older engine that uses a cable throttle body and computer.

Here are the specific money-eating truck engine challenges:

First there is the FEAD (front end accessory drive .. in GM terms).  That can be handled by replacing the truck parts (water pump, alternator, power steering pump, and AC if you want it, and the appropriate brackets) with LS1 Camaro parts.  Some of these brackets can be hard to find, and when I was looking, were not available from either GM or used locally.  Now that LS1 Camaros are getting older, the used supply might be improving.

The second challenge is most trucks use an automatic transmission and our swap uses a manual.  This means that the truck engines will come with a flex plate.  We need flywheel, pressure plate, clutch disk, and throwout bearing.  The easiest way to solve this problem is a spec stage 1 kit.

An alternative to the Spec clutch is to use a Camaro or Corvette clutch kit and the Sachs clutch disk.  The Sachs clutch disk listed in the swap instructions has less thickness than the oem GM clutch disk, and is a very close but not perfect match for the Porsche transmission splines.  Others (including xchop) have used this successfully.  You need the Sachs clutch disk, a GM clutch kit (which includes the flywheel, pressure plate and a GM clutch disk).

Both the Spec and GM options will require a new throwout bearing.  There is also a carrier bearing that goes into the flywheel that is required for both options.

The Third challenge is going to be the intake system.  Truck engines use a very tall intake that will not fit under the hood of a Porsche swap.  The fix for this is to use an LS1 or LS6 intake.  Finding a good used LS1 or LS6 can be hit or miss, but they are out there.  An alternative is to buy a new Dorman brand LS6 oem replacement intake manifold.  There are debates about how well it compares to a real GM LS6 intake, but the Dorman part is about $300 brand new, and is at least as good as an original LS1 intake.

The fourth major issue is related to the intake, and is the fuel injectors.  Truck fuel injectors will not correctly fit into an LS1 / LS6 intake.  The physical fit issue supposedly can be worked around.  I have yet to mount my injectors so I'm not sure how well the work-around will work.  Alternately LS1/LS6 injectors can be used.  Electrical connectors that convert from truck injectors to LS1 injectors are available.  If you change injectors to the LS1/LS6 type, then you will need to have your ECU reprogrammed and should have the car tuned.

On to the ECU.  The ECU will need to be reprogrammed to unlock the VATS (anti-theft) feature of the ECU.  This is needed for every swap so it is not hard to find a service that can do this.  If you are switching from an automatic transmission to a manual that may also need to be changed inside the ECU.  There may be some other changes you will want, for example a race car might need some emissions functionality turned off.

Also you should also think about tuning.  By this point the full intake system, exhaust system, and possibly injectors have been changed on this engine.  It is likely that the engine needs to be tuned to get the air/fuel ratios right for the car, and ensure good long-term reliability.

These are what I have collected as the truck engine specific additions to an LS1 based swap.  All the regular LS1 based challenges also still apply. I would be very surprised if you could cover the entire cost of a swap from sold parts. I would budget a minimum of about $5,000 for the swap, even when being budget oriented. You might get by for less, but there a a lot of parts involved and after all the parts there will still be ECU costs and tuning.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Mercedes m112

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