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New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

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New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:22 pm

Hello All,

I have spent a few months trying to read different posts here, talked to local guys that do Miata swaps, and recently talked with Kent at TPC. Goal is a reliable daily drive street car that will see a couple track days per year. Starting point is an 86 NA that now has a 944T trans. At first I was thinking of LS3 crate at 430 crank HP. But now am considering a low mileage 5.3 or 5.7. And here are my first questions:

What else needs to be beefed up if for the LS3 vs the others?
I have the catalog list from TPC, but don't truly understand what "optional" mods are not really optional if I step up to the LS3. Obviously there is the engine cost, and a rough $5k diff, but I'm curious what other costs I'm missing there.

5.3L vs 5.7L in street drivability. What have people seen with their experiences?
I feel like I'm gonna love either if its done right, but will a little more money up front make a noticeable difference?

What HP/Torque range makes for a fun street car?
I know, stupid question, but as new HP in new cars keeps climbing, I want to spend this money making my car hang with a new base Vette, base Carrera, or at least new GT 'stang. I'm not going to be drag racing it, but that's the ballpark I want to be in. So in a light 944, is 300-350 plenty or should I be shooting for 400ish?

I believe both require LS1 intake and plenum (as well as other stuff), and are you seeing the "cost effective" 5.3L with all these parts add up to stock LS1?

I appreciate the opinions, since everyone's got one, and I want make a decision with as much info as possible.

Thanks
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  sharkey on Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:15 pm

some of the costs to consider with what engine you choose depends on what the engine comes with. if your buying a low mileage truck engine (4.8/5.3/6.0/6.2) you need to consider the cost of the intake manifold, fuel rails and throttle body, as well as the front accessory drive. those items can easily add up to $1500. before committing to anything spend some time pricing out each engine package with the proper manifold and accessory drive and compare it all. also consider if your going to run manual brakes or go to hydroboost, as well as if your going to run power steering or not. many people here go to the turn one power steering pump instead of the gm pump, so thats something else to consider.

where i am the ls1/ls6 are still worth huge money to people, its actually cheaper to buy a whole car take what you need than to buy a drop out. in past ls swaps ive done ( ive never done a 944 swap, i went a different route with my 944) the only reason i consider an ls1 is if it has a t56 bolted to it, then the price of the package makes sense, not that any of that means much here. most of the time i end up with truck engines, sometimes i can use the truck accessory drive and manifold so it works out cheap.

if it were me, the ls3 crate engine is great, but expensive. if i could find a used ls3, id consider it. however an aluminum block 5.3l would be my first thought. from what ive seen, even by the time i find the manifold and car accessory drive, there is still lots of money left over for a cam and valve springs.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:54 am

Cost of converting a truck engine over to a car accessory drive determines greatly on the condition of your existing accessories and you ability/comfort level making your own brackets. First let's just make sure that you understand that the truck accessories and the f-body accessories and the corvette accessories all operate on a different depth from the engine. Corvette accessories are closest to the block, then f-body, then truck. That being said this is the problem with the truck engine

  • Intake manifold is too high for stock hood clearance. Either get a car intake manifold with appropriate fuel rails (this often means injectors too) or modify the hood. All the car equipment can usually be had for ~$300
  • Now that the intake manifold is lower, the throttle body is also lower and will hit the spout on the waterpump. Some people have successfully modified the water pump, others get a car water pump.
  • Alternator is too high. Almost everyone puts it in the F-body location.
  • Moving the alternator will most likely cause you to move the power steering pump.


Now take this next portion with a grain of salt because my engine isn't up and running.
I took almost the cheapest possible route. I spent the money on the car intake equipment and the car water pump. However, to save money i decided to keep the rest of the accessories and got spacers for the car water pump and made my own spacers/mounting brackets for the system as needed. There are also companies that make these brackets for you. When I looked into it this was cheaper than buying all new accessories.

In the end, it cost me somewhere around $550 to do the conversion. I'm not concerned with the brackets breaking, however I am a little concerned about belt alignment. Now sure if just eye-balling it is good enough. I'm using a Trailblazer SS LS2 by the way.

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engine

Post  kevin924kevin on Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:17 am

Gongrats and welcome. I choose the LS3, did the cam up grade to make it the 480 HP. I added
the Fast 102 intake and rails. I purchased the caddy CTSV assessory drive units complete in a box.
With a proper tune it should be around 525 HP. They say on this form that the turbo trans can handle aprrox 400 HP. I chose a different route and I am using the Z06 trans complete, a lot more work but solid. I picked up my LS3 out of the US with 20000 miles on it for 3500.00 US. I had the hole motor taken apart and did all new bearings , rings etc. Should be a really nice daily driver with a bit of spunk.
It really boils down to what you want and how much money you are prepaired to spend. I plan on using mine as a daily driver with some autocross and hopefully a track day or to up here. Good luck,
and build what you want the first time.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:27 pm

Thanks for the feedback.
I know that this Forum spans quite the range of builds, and that is why I was hoping to get a bit of different opinions.

And I do think that my budget will be blown if I have to upgrade the tranny (again). Which is pretty much why I am dialing my goal back a bit from the LS3 (even in stock 430hp form).

Anyone have any driving impressions on 5.3 vs 5.7?
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  docwyte on Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:34 am

I'm running 425rwhp through my stock Turbo S transmission without any problems.

You need to choose your motor based on your hp goals and budget. As others have pointed out there are additional costs involved when you buy a truck motor as the accessories and brackets aren't correct for our swap...

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:05 am

Thanks for the reply Doc.

Did you start with that hp level? Or did you build up to it, and if so what were your thoughts from one power level to the next?

My goal is a reliable street car (AC, pwr steering, hydroboost), and I will be paying a shop to do the build for me. So that said, increasing the budget from $20k to $23k (really rough numbers at this point) is not as big of a jump if the result is totally worth it. I really don't want to spend the money and just wish I did a little bit more. Which is kinda why I'm shading more to the 5.7L, as it seems like it is easier to get a little more out of it down the road, than being limited by the 5.3L.
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Build cost

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:11 am

FYI i'm looking at about $16k (including $3k for car) for basically what you're looking for except for AC. But that's assuming my junkyard motor needs minimal work.

That's cost of parts and some services I can't do (tune, alignment, power steering pump re-valve, etc.)

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  docwyte on Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:12 pm

Yeah, that's my car. It's a street/track car so I've retained A/C, cruise control, stereo etc, with a welded rollbar, fixed back seats and harnesses. So it retains the niceties to drive to the track, then keeps you safe and kicks butt on the track.

I started with a stock LS1 with just a cam and made around 360-375rwhp. Then I added long tube headers, FAST 92/92 intake and made 400rwhp, then I went to a built 383 stroker motor and I'm making 425rwhp and 415 ft lbs. This latest motor is making 60 more ft lbs at the wheels across the board compared to the LS1.

The torque is what you notice the most, it's just a ripper of a car, tip in and it flies. Gotta say it still was damn fast with the LS1 making around 370rwhp too...

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  lsporsche on Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:50 pm

If the money isnt a concern then definitely go with a 5.7 or 6.0. Lighter block and correct intake, injectors, fuel rail, and accessories/brackets. You should be able to find an ls1/6 around 1500-2000

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:14 pm

Thanks for the responses. That's the type of opinions I was hoping for, and convincing me to go with the 5.7L. Especially with the results that Doc is mentioning here. Start with a good 5.7, and enjoy it. Then (as always) when I want more, I can do a bit more, without having to go all the way to the LS3.

And thanks for the PM Doc, but I haven't hit my post # yet, so I can't reply privately. However I can reply here. Yes, I already have my car. I've had it for 15 years, and I'm kind of attached to it. I know that's not the cheapest way to go, and neither is paying a shop to do the work, but it is what it is.

Also, in the conversation about cost of a motor, I'm probably also leaning toward paying more for either really low mileage or a rebuild. Yeah, it'll cost a bit more. But I feel like I'll be paying for peace of mind. And I feel that this project (somewhat) resets the clock on my 30 year old baby. So I want the engine to be as young as possible, even if that does cost a couple more grand.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  docwyte on Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:17 pm

Finding a low mileage motor used is going to be hard. The LS1/6's are getting old at this point. I also disagree with thought that you can find one for $1500, I'd expect to pay around twice that for a good one with all the accessories, intake manifold etc, especially if you want one with low mileage...

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  lsporsche on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:56 pm

There was a complete ls1 out of a 99 camaro for sale near me for 1500, around 100k miles. Deals are out there. These engines are becoming dated and getting cheap. Not like theyre uncommon.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  lsporsche on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:58 pm

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  docwyte on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:46 am

That ad is for a long block only, no intake, no accessories. Everyone wants an LS now as a swap, the prices are still pretty high, especially if a certified low mileage engine is what you want.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:02 am

i agree with Doc. Low mileage f-body for $1500 is gonna be a unicorn.
You could probably find a "low mileage" 5.3 or 4.8 for that money depending on where you live and how long you feel like waiting.

FYI the reason I went with my trailblazer engine was that it was $1600 for a LS2 with truck accessories... but it sure as heck isn't low mileage and of course the accessories are wrong.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  lsporsche on Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:33 am

Yeah, if you're after low mileage you'll pay for it. I've been into enough modern engines with 150+k miles and still seen hone marks in the cylinder walls to bother with that concern too much. Modern oil is pretty amazing.

A couple things to consider:
Ls1 intake is junk. Whether you get an ls1 or a truck engine you'll want an ls6 intake. There is a seller on ebay with dozens of used ls6 intakes complete with returnless fuel rail and ls6 injectors for $400. He is in kuwait and shipping takes a while, but everything came in good shape and works great. So intake cost is a wash unless you buy an ls6.

Water pump. Yes a truck water pump is different, but chances are if you freshen up your engine you'll be buying a water pump anyways. So that's a wash.

A truck alternator will work with f body brackets.

So, if you are looking at $1000+ difference between ls1/6 engines and lq4/9 6.0 engines you may be better off with the truck engine. And chances are a truck or suv engine hasn't had the snot driven out of it like an f body or corvette.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  lsporsche on Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:38 am

Oh, and good deals can be found on car-part.com as well. Sounds like a generic site name but it has salvage yard listings that you arent going to find on craigslist and it will search in a radius of your zip code

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  erioshi on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:51 pm

I went with an aluminum block 5.3 truck engine (L33) which was a full drop out. I'm not sure how prices are in your area, but where I live the hotrod market has pushed pricing on all of the aluminum block engines, along with the large displacement iron blocks, up to the point where crate engines start to look attractive. I had been searching for about six months before finding my engine; while not ideal, it seemed to be a decent compromise between completeness, mileage and price. Below are the purchases I have made to "convert" my drop-in L33 to fit like a drop-in LS1/LS6 would.

My engine was full drop-out so included all the accessories, ecu, DBW pedal and control module, throttle body, wiring harness, and all the truck accessories. It was about $1,700 to my door. On top of that, I've purchased a flywheel (Fidanza) for about $300, a set of brand new CTS-V front end accessories for about $900 as a kit from gmpp, water pump and harmonic balancer, about another $200 combined. I also needed to purchase fuel rails and fittings to work with a car manifold (ebay, earls and speedway) for about $250, and for injectors to fit an LS1/LS6 style intake I purchased a used set of truck flex fuel injectors ($120). Finally I will be buying a new Doorman LS6 replacement manifold for about $300. Add in gaskets and other assorted odds and ends, and I will have spent between $3500 and $4000. While still less than a drop-out LS1/LS6 locally, I've basically doubled the cost of my bargain L33.

It is worth noting that figure only partially covers the typical refresh items like a new oil pump, timing chain, lifters, etc. And if you add in performance some parts to help cover horsepower gap between an LS1 and my L33, then the cost jumps up even more. I bought a cam, push rods, springs .. may have the heads ported .. probably another $1500 all in.

That pushes my L33 build to about $5000 for a used 5.3 liter engine with about the same HP as an LS6 with a mild cam.

Would I do it this way again? I think it would depend on the cost and availability of the alternatives. But it does take some of the bite out of the cost of a budget crate engine.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:16 pm

Thanks erioshi.

That's a pretty good run down, and while it sounds like you got a good setup, just how you like it, it does approach the crate pricing. Which is kinda what i'm finding, after Kent from TPC gave me a similar list of parts to what you spec'd out. It does add up.

So I guess I agree with these other comments about LS1's getting older, right now eBay's looking like $3500-$4500 for under 100k (and a lot over 100k too).

Which leads me to the other post I just started about a possible crate engine supplier.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  erioshi on Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:03 am

Here are a couple more factors to consider. First how complete is the crate engine or used LS1/LS2/LS6 you are looking at? Those little bits that are not included can also drive costs up very very quickly. My drop-out included basically everything I will need except the MAF, starter (may have came with the engine, just not remembering it), f-body engine mounts, and some intake tubing. Had I asked, they probably would have included the MAF and starter, or made them low cost add-ons.

Second, unless you are getting a fully documented rebuild, even today's "low mileage" engine may come with close to 100k miles. I think my L33 was listed with about 70K miles on it. Not bad based on how long these engines seem to run, but enough miles to require a bit of a tear-down and inspection before putting into the car, unless you don't mind pulling engines. The newer engines around where I live also come at quite a premium.

Also, had I known more about LS based engines, I might have held out for a gen VI engine instead of going with a gen III. While there are not a lot of differences, the gen VI heads seem to have better flow and power potential than the gen III heads. I do believe some gen VI heads will cross to a gen III block, but there are limitations, and gotchas. Small bore engines like the 4.8 and 5.3 blocks (same bore size) would require heads from the same bore size gen IV. And of course using gen IV heads requires a gen IV compatible intake manifold. The gen IV intake manifold is designed to work with rectangular (vs cathedral) intake ports, and uses a different bolt pattern (and size, I think) for the throttle body. A lot of small details that would make building up a short block quite complicated.

I'm not sure if all gen IV heads are rectangular port, or just the ones on the larger engines. The cathedral port heads on my L33 may be able to flow enough air to meet my engine's needs, even with an aggressive cam. If not, my heads still might meet my needs with some CnC porting. I'm still trying to figure out my options and the trade-offs involved. Honestly that is why I haven't bought an intake manifold yet; I'm still trying to figure out my final plan for the heads, intake and throttle body. Of course if I swap to gen IV stuff, there will be added cost. Gen IV heads mean gen IV intake which means gen IV throttle body. And in my case that could also mean changing out the ECU, throttle pedal and pedal control module, along with the throttle body and DBW pedal and module. And an ECU change might also require different connectors, sensors, MAF, and possibly wiring changes. But not all of that may need to change .. more research...

Coming from the turbo import world, I knew having a proper head and cam set-up was important. In the LS world, there are a lot more options for both heads and cams, and it seems to be even more critical to make the right choices. Here we don't have a turbo to force air past poor parts selection and design choices.

I guess what I have learned is that when building an LS engine, start with displacement, then figure out the heads, then the cam, and finally the rest. I suppose it's not that different from building an engine from scratch in the import scene, but there do seem to be quite a few more ways to get lost if you're not careful.

I realize you are looking at crate engines; I basically added this info to give more depth to my first post. And it seems to be a bit more justification for possibly starting with a well thought out crate engine.

I think for my build, given all the possible follow on effects of changing heads, I'm going to look at CnC porting the gen III heads on my engine and call it a day. They are 799 castings, so one of the better flowing gen III head designs and not a bad place to start. The whole point of my drop-out was to minimize the potential for getting lost.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  docwyte on Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:30 am

Another option is to have a motor built for you, there are many LS motor builders out there that can build anything you want.

I'm very happy with my Thompson Motorsports 383 stroker...

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jpkinerk on Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:31 pm

So not sure if this helps depending on where you live, but there's a kid in Dayton, OH that parts out F-bodies and sells the engines pretty cheap. I got a '99 LS1 from him with 70k miles and it included wiring harness, PCM and all the accessories for $2000.

Just search LS1 in auto parts on Craigslist Dayton, and you'll see his posts pop up from time to time. Sorry I can't think of a name at the moment, but I see his posts several times a year when I'm just surfing around.

Hope this helps.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jpkinerk on Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:49 pm

Also just saw this today. LS6 for $3,500. They've had this ad up a few times, I bet $3k would take it. For the price of some LS1's this would be a much better platform to make some nutty/somewhat reliable hp for the track. Had one been around when I started my build I would have def. gone LS6. I've driven two cars with the LS6 in my time, and they are just bulldogs. You can beat on em all day.

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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

Post  jHo on Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:20 pm

Yeah, the LS6 is cool. And I do appreciate all the input, but 130k is definitely not "low" mileage in my book.

I'm think after a few days of looking around and talking with people, I'm getting my heart set on going with a crate. And in general, I'm between two crates: 350hp 5.3L or 430 6.2L.

There's a bit of a price difference between the two, and as was mentioned here I need to figure out what exactly comes with each to get a good idea on the "true" price difference.

On one hand the LS3 will be stock and have a ton of room to get a lot more out of it years down the road. But on the other, as one of my priorities is reliability, I am a little nervous about over 400 hp/trq on my old car. So maybe starting out with 350hp/trq is a better base with less wear and tear on the rest of the car. And you can still get a bunch more out of the 5.3L in the future too.

That's really what I'm down to. Decisions. Decisions.
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Re: New Guy 1st post: Street Car Engine Choice 5.3 vs 5.7 vs LS3

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