HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

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Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:15 pm

So if you've seen any of my posts you've probably gathered that I'm quite cheap.
I want to run the hydroboost system but I'm way too cheap to purchase the adapter from TPC that allows you to use the stock 944 master cylinder. So i'll be using the mustang hydroboost with the mustang master cylinder.

From what I read, people complain that the mustang master cylinder causes the pedal stroke to decrease significantly (which makes sense because the MC bore is larger) and the brake bias to be thrown off. The brake bias should be easily fixed with a brake proportional valve... right? For those that have done this is that aspect that easy?

Now can't I lengthen the pedal stroke by picking calipers with larger piston area and/or modding the pedal itself to change the pedal ratio?

I must be missing something? I can't be the only one willing to do a custom brake solution.

Thanks guys

FrostedFlakeJake

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  docwyte on Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:27 pm

Buy the adapter. Seriously, it's not that expensive and it solves a lot of problems. I ran without one for, well, until now. So almost 6 years. Yes, with a Tilton adjustable proportioning valve you can get the bias pretty darn close but then you're spending money on the Tilton plus whatever your going to spend on calipers etc.

Feel is way off tho, no pedal stroke to speak of and I have Big Reds up front and Turbo S in the back.

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  Rich L. on Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:00 pm

If you're not sticking with Porsche calipers, then there's not really an advantage to sticking with the Porsche master cylinder. You'll need an adjustable proportioning valve anyway and pedal feel will be a crap shoot no matter what.

Doc now has the alternative, and better choice IMhO, Porsche calipers and master.

Rich
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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:00 pm

pedal feel will be a crap shoot no matter what.

How do you figure? Is that what everyone says about all the aftermarket calipers?? Like the rennbay kit that uses the radial mount wilwood 4 piston superlites? Or take your pick of any of xschop's brake adapters that don't involve a porsche caliper.

Isn't the point of all the piston offerings of aftermarket calipers to allow the user to match a caliper to a MC bore and pedal ratio?

So you increase the MC bore by switching to the Ford unit which will displace or push more volume of fluid which makes the pedal travel shorter. Increasing the piston diameter will, in principle, have the opposite effect by making the amount of fluid displacement to move the caliper greater which makes the pedal travel longer.

FrostedFlakeJake

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:05 pm

Buy the adapter. Seriously, it's not that expensive and it solves a lot of problems. I ran without one for, well, until now. So almost 6 years. Yes, with a Tilton adjustable proportioning valve you can get the bias pretty darn close but then you're spending money on the Tilton plus whatever your going to spend on calipers etc.

Feel is way off tho, no pedal stroke to speak of and I have Big Reds up front and Turbo S in the back.

So the master cylinder was too large for the piston diameter..

I'm just trying to figure this out. In honesty it will only save me ~$200 if i get it right the first time. but $200 here, $100 there... it adds up.

However there's not much way to figure out if I did it right without rendering any caliper I choose un-returnable...

FrostedFlakeJake

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  docwyte on Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:34 pm

Yes, your thinking is correct. However you need to match up the bore sizes to the Mustang setup. Then try it and see if you like it. If you don't, then you've wasted time and money.

What brakes do you have now? The adapter isn't that much money...

docwyte

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  Rich L. on Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:55 pm

docwyte wrote:try it and see if you like it.  If you don't, then you've wasted time and money

a.k.a, "crap shoot"

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  sharkey on Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:15 pm

why not look at the mustang brake package overall and compare it. what is the caliper piston bore on the mustang? what about piston count? pedal ratio?

sharkey

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  erioshi on Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:23 am

Brakes are a complicated problem, and require a number of compromises that involve endurance, fade resistance, pedal feel, and packaging.  Part of what makes creating ideal brakes for any given situation so complicated is they are fairly complex systems, and they are measured against different priorities by different people.  One person's "perfect braking set-up" is another's noisy, dusty, hard to modulate when cold, rotor eating mess.  Even something as simple as changing the brand of pads, but keeping them matched front and rear, can result in big changes in performance, feel, and feedback.  Also changing tire brands (and/or sizing) can change how the using the brakes can feel to a driver.  For what it's worth, I tend to prioritize performance and fade resistance over noise, dust, wear and a bit of squeal when cold.

If you're willing to replace any required parts and start from scratch, here's a calculator to help get you started:  http://www.jakelatham.com/radical/info/brake_calculators.shtml

It was put together by the author to help sort out track brakes for his Radical race car, but the same principles apply.  You might want to do a bit of research into how much pedal pressure and travel you are comfortable with, because if you're going to need to tune everything brake related, you may as well have some targets to work towards.

There is a whole lot more, but this should be enough get you started on pulling your hair out.

For me, all of this will come after I've got my 928 running and back on the road.  Driving first (with some allowance for engine maintenance and tweaks), then electrical, suspension, brakes, paint and interior .. perhaps even mostly in that order.
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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:23 am

yes! I found Jake's calculator yesterday while playing around with this whole idea.

Not sure if his calculation for pedal travel is correct (it says like 0.937 for a stock 944), but I used it to compare to the mustang master cylinder. And with choosing a caliper with piston area of 5.18" I received roughly the same pedal travel (0.06" shorter) with 20% more rotor torque but 10% less line pressure. Now the booster increases the effective pedal force and increases the pressure in the line right? I'm trying to figure out the effective assist done by the stock vacuum 944 system and then the assist done by the ford hydroboost.

Maybe then I'll actually be able to contribute to the conversation when I call willwood...

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:27 am

Hmmmmm so the MC from a 94-95 cobra is 15/16 like the front bore of the 944... and it looks like it bolts onto the hydroboost form 99-04 mustang except for it will be clocked differently. Will there be a problem with the hydroboost interacting with the cobra MC since it's bore is 1/16" smaller?

99-04 Mustang MC:


94-95 Cobra MC:

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:28 pm

Hope i'm not clogging up the board posting alot here...

But evidently that difference in the mounting surface is a big deal. However people have successfully mounted that cobra MC to a f-350 hydro booster that has the correct mounting surface.

That would allow you to at least use a MC with the same bore diameter in the fronts, and a similar max MC stroke (944 is somewhere around 1.3" and the 94-95 cobra MC is 1.4").

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  docwyte on Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:07 pm

Rear bias is what I noticed being off the most with the mustang MC.

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Re: Ford Hydroboost & Caliper matching

Post  hutchjc1 on Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:09 am

The other thing you gain with the porshe master is that it has a port for the hyd. clutch so you don't have to add a separate / remote reservoir.

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