HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

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New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:20 pm

Hey all,

First off, apologies for the lengthy post.  I have semi-recently started thinking more deeply into the World of Sacrilege (i.e., swapping in a V8 to my 951).  I recognize many of the names here from Rennlist and various other local forums -- howdy!

I am at a bit of a crossroads with my 1986 951 track car: through a freak accident involving my ancient Vitesse software, I accidentally fried my DME/piggyback/chipset and now I find myself wondering if I should expedite my plans to throw a V8 in that sucker.

I'll tell you right now that my plans with this car are a bit odd -- I am not considering putting a V8 in this car because I want to go faster (quite frankly, I'm fine with the 145mph I'm already doing at Watkins Glen, thanks...).  I'm putting a V8 in the car because it would be awesome, and make an already emotional car even more evocative.  Thanks to my day job as a race engineer (and PCA instructor), I get plenty of opportunity to drive full-bore race cars.  This one will just be a fun track day car.


My 2.5T motor has been dead nuts reliable but is getting on in years -- in the next year or so, a couple oil leaks and compression issues will start to become a problem and need addressing.  Couple that with the fact that my almost decade-old Vitesse system now needs to be replaced, perhaps I should be putting my time/money/effort into the V8 rather than a stopgap measure for my tired 2.5T motor.  


I have done an extensive amount of searching/researching, and have come up with a few questions that I would appreciate any insight you lot may have.  Thanks in advance for humoring me!


1.  It looks like TPC is the kit I want.  Heard too many issues with RH and nothing but good things with the TPC kit/customer service.  I love the long-tube headers they designed -- are these now the only ones they sell?

2.  I am struggling with which engine to buy (I know, doesn't everyone?).  Looking at either an LS1 or LS2.  As mentioned above, I am not searching for mega HP.  Ultimately, (as a Phase 2) I would like to build a revvier, top-heavy motor (say, a short stroke, higher comp, with a big cam).  

2a.  I plan to install a new AIM system (the MXG/MXS).  The LS2 ECU is supported from the factory but the LS1 is not.  Has anyone installed AIM on the LS1 ECU -- for this reason alone should I just bother to go with the LS2?  LS1's seem about half as expensive, so I'd probably prefer the cheaper route since I don't *need* the HP...

2b. The LS2 is throttle-by-wire. What have people done here -- retrofit a Corvette pedal potentiometer to the 944 pedal? I confess I am not a huge fan of TBW but it can be fine.

3.  For a track car (mine has Big Reds), what is the ideal brake setup you guys would recommend?  



I can guarantee there will be subsequent questions but that's all I can think of for now.  Again, thanks in advance!


Last edited by ausgeflippt951 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:53 pm

RE: 2a -- did some more digging and it looks like I really should go with an LS2.  The plug-and-play nature is tough to beat, and you get quite a lot of information.  I've done the alternative (where nothing is plug-and-play) and I would like to avoid that at all costs!


This did, however, uncover an additional point of consideration: the LS2 is throttle-by-wire. Curious what folks have done to alleviate/handle this.
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More pontificating...

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:51 pm

Or perhaps I should just go with the L33 since they're so cheap, and just build that sucker out? Not sure what to do about engine management in that case.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  Rich L. on Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:24 pm

Do some reading in the member conversion threads, lots of discussion there on all of those topics except the data acquisition stuff. Maybe check out LS1Tech for that.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  sharkey on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:37 am

was just reading about a high rpm screamer hot rod magazine put together. started with a 6.2l ls3 block and used a 4.8l crank. custom pistons, a big cam, and a real good set of heads made over 600hp at 8000 rpm. might be a combo to consider in the future.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  erioshi on Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:09 am

ausgeflippt951 wrote:Or perhaps I should just go with the L33 since they're so cheap, and just build that sucker out? Not sure what to do about engine management in that case.
The L33 will most likely not save you an appreciable amount of money, and will likely add time and complexity.

I've been acquiring all the necessary components to put my complete L33 "drop out" engine package into a rescue 928. On top of the full drop-out L33, I've spent almost $1,700 in buying engine parts needed for a clean swap that would have come OEM with a full LS1/LS2/LS6 drop-out. With proper shopping, you should be able to find an LS1/2 priced within about 2K of an L33; for the needs of a Porsche swap, the extra $2K represents a fair value. In addition to time and headaches saved through the required extra research, parts purchases and assembly projects, a real LS1/2 would offer additional displacement and performance.

If I ever do this again, I will most likely start with an LS1/2/6 and skip the L33. It is a good engine, but probably not the best starting point for a Porsche swap.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:37 am

I wouldn't run 8000rpm on one of these motors unless you plan on tearing it down alot.

It's easy to make 400rwhp out of an LS1 with simple bolt ons and have power all the way to redline at ~6800 rpm.

I'm using the Kooks long tube headers, you can find them for sale on eBay, they're arguably the best headers out there. The Renegade Hybrids mid length headers also support a ton of HP, some guy that's not on this site made mad amounts with them.

There are some decisions you have to make that'll drive your conversion, like what brake booster (if any) setup you plan to use, how you're going to keep the motor cool, etc, etc, etc...

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:26 am

Thanks all for the thoughtful responses.


erioshi wrote:The L33 will most likely not save you an appreciable amount of money, and will likely add time and complexity.

I've been acquiring all the necessary components to put my complete L33 "drop out" engine package into a rescue 928.  On top of the full drop-out L33, I've spent almost $1,700 in buying engine parts needed for a clean swap that would have come OEM with a full LS1/LS2/LS6 drop-out.  With proper shopping, you should be able to find an LS1/2 priced within about 2K of an L33; for the needs of a Porsche swap, the extra $2K represents a fair value.  In addition to time and headaches saved through the required extra research, parts purchases and assembly projects, a real LS1/2 would offer additional displacement and performance.

If I ever do this again, I will most likely start with an LS1/2/6 and skip the L33.  It is a good engine, but probably not the best starting point for a Porsche swap.

Very interesting, thanks for the insight here.  I've stumbled across a number of articles that discuss building an aluminum 5.3L for <$2k using mostly OE parts (LS2 heads, cam, etc).  What are the aspects that an LS2 would get me that I'd find myself scrambling/fabricating for a built 5.3L?  Cheapest LS2 (with <100k mi) is around $5k at the moment (though it does come with everything). Remember, we're 944 owners -- we're cheap bastards!



I am also curious about the notion of throttle-by-wire.  Sounds like the easiest way to go circumvent this is by installing an LS1 intake system (plus perhaps FAST TB if desired).  


docwyte wrote:I wouldn't run 8000rpm on one of these motors unless you plan on tearing it down alot.

It's easy to make 400rwhp out of an LS1 with simple bolt ons and have power all the way to redline at ~6800 rpm.

I'm using the Kooks long tube headers, you can find them for sale on eBay, they're arguably the best headers out there. The Renegade Hybrids mid length headers also support a ton of HP, some guy that's not on this site made mad amounts with them.

There are some decisions you have to make that'll drive your conversion, like what brake booster (if any) setup you plan to use, how you're going to keep the motor cool, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah, 8000 rpm isn't in the cards for me, but 7000 could be (assuming I upgrade the valvetrain).  

For a Phase 1, I am intrigued by the 5.3L that utilizes LS2 heads/cam (though the Crane 224/232 cam is supposed to be awesome).  With long-tube headers, it should really howl I would think.


Speaking of long-tube headers, do you know how the TPC headers compare to the Kooks units?  I didn't think the off-the-shelf stuff would even fit on a conversion like this...Kooks makes great stuff though, so it'd be killer to be able to use.



Doc, your car is a track car as well IIRC.  What have you done for brakes?  I'd like to run dual MCs, provided the cost isn't too ridiculous.  No need for ABS.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:30 am

This is just my opinion, but I feel that the Kooks headers are the best on the market. They're not cheap tho. SS pipe, mandrel bent, 3" collector made to fit this conversion and they fit perfectly.

I'm running Boxster ABS, 964 Turbo front brake rotors with Big Red calipers, factory Turbo S rear brakes, Tilton adjustable rear proportioning valve, Ford Mustang Hydroboost with the factory 951 Master Cylinder with the adapter you can get at TPC now, also have brake duct backing plates and ducting to the front grill of the car.

I never run out of brakes on this car, never faded them etc. I run Hawk DTC70 pads on the front, Pagid Blacks in the back.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:05 am

Good to hear, thanks. I really like Kooks stuff -- didn't even think they'd fit. Which model did you buy for (I'm assuming they don't have a 944-specific one)?


Our cars are very similar from a braking perspective. Ford Hyrdoboost sounds like the most straightforward way to go, so perhaps I'll start there. That will enable me to keep the most hardware in place (I recently overhauled the entire setup last year, so it'd be a shame to lose it all!).
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:17 am

They do have a specific 944 LS conversion one. You have to buy it from one particular vendor tho, he has them on eBay. Search 944 V8 headers and you'll find them.

If you do the Ford Hydroboost make sure to get the 951 MC adapter from TPC. This is something kinda new and it lets you reuse the 951 MC. I just got this, I've been using the Ford MC for years and it really screws up the brake bias and pedal stroke/feel...

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:26 am

Awesome thanks, will do.


Question: what do most folks use for engine management? If I were to go the built 5.3L route, I believe I could use an LS2 ECM + something like HPTuner. This way I can still tap into the LS2 ECM with AIM.

Not sure if this is the right way to go about it, however.


I am not used to being so awash with aftermarket options! Spoiled for choice. Been driving a 951 for too long...
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:27 am

Pretty much all of us use the stock GM PCM and HP Tuners...

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:01 pm

Cheapest LS2 (with <100k mi) is around $5k at the moment (though it does come with everything). Remember, we're 944 owners

Tried to respond earlier but it looks like i hit the wrong button and started a whole new topic...scratch

The LS2 of the Trailblazer SS is one of the best deals out there. I've found them 3 or 4 times on craigslist for under $2000 and finally picked one up. You have to go through the same process as any other truck motor (car intake manifold, get injectors/rail to fit new manifold, and find a solution for engine accessories), but it's still all aluminum and you get 400hp at the crank stock.

I'm in the process of getting my TBSS LS2 into the right configuration so it fits in the 944 and when it'll cost me about $2000 when it's all said and finished.

Something to think about. But I've found complete LS2s from GTOs and Vettes for $3500 pretty easily before. Your $5000 number seems pretty high to me... there's definitely better deals out there.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:56 pm

FrostedFlakeJake wrote:
Cheapest LS2 (with <100k mi) is around $5k at the moment (though it does come with everything). Remember, we're 944 owners

Tried to respond earlier but it looks like i hit the wrong button and started a whole new topic...scratch

The LS2 of the Trailblazer SS is one of the best deals out there. I've found them 3 or 4 times on craigslist for under $2000 and finally picked one up. You have to go through the same process as any other truck motor (car intake manifold, get injectors/rail to fit new manifold, and find a solution for engine accessories), but it's still all aluminum and you get 400hp at the crank stock.

I'm in the process of getting my TBSS LS2 into the right configuration so it fits in the 944 and when it'll cost me about $2000 when it's all said and finished.

Something to think about. But I've found complete LS2s from GTOs and Vettes for $3500 pretty easily before. Your $5000 number seems pretty high to me... there's definitely better deals out there.

Thanks -- I'll keep looking then. The $5k was just what Ebay was spewing out for Corvette LS2's. There's a wrecker in Southern MD that I plan on giving a call as well.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:02 pm

$5k is definitely high. You can get a completely built forged motor for that kinda money.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:04 pm

The $5k was just what Ebay was spewing out for Corvette LS2's.

FYI the Vette accessory drive doesn't work either.. the GTO is the closest but for LS1 GTO's you had to get a new AC compressor due to the entrance point of the lines, not sure if it's the same story for the LS2 GTO's.

Heck who wants AC anyways?! rabbit

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  ausgeflippt951 on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:48 pm

FrostedFlakeJake wrote:
The $5k was just what Ebay was spewing out for Corvette LS2's.

FYI the Vette accessory drive doesn't work either.. the GTO is the closest but for LS1 GTO's you had to get a new AC compressor due to the entrance point of the lines, not sure if it's the same story for the LS2 GTO's.

Heck who wants AC anyways?! rabbit

Well, in my case you're right! I will be deleting A/C (at least, for now). Last time I used A/C was about 3 years ago. Ha.

I thought the Vette accessory drive was what I wanted, since it's supposedly the lowest profile? Or am I thinking of something else. I know the harmonic balancer was cited as the lowest profile in one of the articles I read.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:55 pm

The F body (Camaro/Firebord) accessory drive is what you want...

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  FrostedFlakeJake on Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

I thought the Vette accessory drive was what I wanted, since it's supposedly the lowest profile? Or am I thinking of something else. I know the harmonic balancer was cited as the lowest profile in one of the articles I read.

You are correct but the accessory depth isn't the problem, it's the location of the alternator. It's too high up on the vette drive.

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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  Dan J on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:29 pm

Since your car is already set up for the track, you've presumably got brakes, tires and suspension set up the way you like.

What kind of power was your turbo motor making? Where do you want to be and how much do you want to spend?

There are lots of ways around the barn and this forum is an outstanding place to get information from hands-on guys who have tried tons of combinations and setups. Aftermarket support is outstanding for the combinations we're using.

A relatively simple approach to 400 rear wheel hp/tq that I used is an '04 GTO LS1 motor with LS6 intake and heads, a medium cam, dual springs, lifters and ti retainers. That plus a baffled moroso oil pan and shorty headers, all running on an F-body ecu. I used shorty headers (back in 2009) but would go with the long headers if doing the project again. Cable throttle is simple using the stock pedal setup.

This combo passes emissions here in Oregon (it has dual exhaust including cats) and runs acceptably cool on the street and track using a stock 951 radiator/fans and remote oil cooler.

You will need to think about brakes and power steering. It's a matter of personal preference. To keep things simple and analog, I went with a Tilton MC + bias adjuster and manual (non-power) brakes using Big Reds, 2 piece floating 965 rotors and Kokeln adapters. The rear brakes are 951 with 030 rotors. Pedal is firm, but once the pads (EBC) are warm, pedal pressure is acceptable and linear for a race car. Steering is a 944 manual rack. Not fingertip light with 275's at parking lot speeds, but outstanding feel on the track. The only accessory on the motor is an alternator, mounted low on the driver's side.

One thing to think about before getting too far along is reinforcing the firewall. That's a weak spot and several people have taken different approaches.

Over the past couple years the new C7 Z06, GT350r, GT3 RS and guys with over 500hp C5 and C6 Vettes have raised the bar a bit, that's if DE is your thing. To do again, I'd probably go with a slightly bigger cam, better breathing aftermarket heads and long-tube headers. That's maybe another $2k net difference over what I have, but another 100hp. These motors are super modern and straightforward to upgrade, so you can always build up as you go.

As you know, the character of these motors is not high-strung, lightweight, screaming rev-monster though. You might be able to find a light flywheel/clutch combo to help, but it might cost you some low speed drive-ability. I'd always had small displacement, higher revving European stuff prior to this car, but have learned to embrace the simple, robust and relatively inexpensive power and torque. Think NASCAR more than Formula Atlantic.

Dan.
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LS engine

Post  kevin924kevin on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:11 pm

I opted for the LS3 430hp stock from factory. I did the GM cam upgrade to 480hp added the102 fast intake  and rails had my engine guy massage the heads bearings etc. They say with the long tubes from kooks they claim 70hp more. A stock 430 hp LS3 with a proper tune can reach 492hp all day long. I  used the CTS caddy drives new from GM in a box complete no AC but everything else paid 500.00. I would like to think my engine will make 550 plus, but the dyno will tell the truth. I chose to use the vette six speed. Should make my 924 alot of fun to drive. forgot, i aslo purchased the GM DBW harness complete. Plug and play at its best. 900.00 US it includes everything need to make my motor run.
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:17 pm

I've found it easy to add up the numbers but the dyno hasn't been nearly as kind. I made 400rwhp on a junkyard LS1, FAST92/92, Kooks long tubes and a baby EPS cam. It'd be really hard to get another 100hp on top of that, even with aftermarket heads and a hotter cam...

Going to my current 383 with RHS 232cc as cast heads, everything else the same I'm making 422rwhp but an additional 60 ft lbs of torque, at 410ft lbs.

I know the cam I have isn't optimal for my current setup and I'm leaving power on the table. How much is hard to say, shops tell me I could pick up an additional 50rwhp but talk is cheap.

I'm also limited in power due to my class to pretty much what I currently make and I don't want to sacrifice torque...

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LS3

Post  kevin924kevin on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:22 pm

Doc, did you ever get a dyno before and after the kooks?
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Re: New guy here: potential conversion for 1986 951 track car

Post  docwyte on Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:27 pm

Yes, I picked up close to 30rwhp with them on my junkyard LS1 with stock 241 heads.

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