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What's wrong with this picture?

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  dallas on Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:04 pm

Bluemach check my gallery. Maybe it can help for pan clearance. Mine was the rh kit and I still had to grind the rack support.

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:03 am

OK endrnet,
I had to look @ my LT1 Energy Suspension mounts, and...
gt1scca wrote:Differences in motor mounts should not be dramatic, either.
(Hmmm...'gonna have to eat that one...)

There are "short" and "tall" SBC mounts, and you obviously have the short version.

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7/16" difference in height...

There ya go.

Now you know the problem...
call Jeg's and solve it.

Shim Free...
Razz

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:27 am

gt1scca wrote:
Now you know the problem...
call Jeg's and solve it.

Shim Free...
Razz

A taller mount won't fix this I don't think:

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The problem isn't so much that the upright is too short, it's more that it's positioned too low on the engine. If the mount were *only* taller, that would... actually make the problem worse. If it *also* moved the tabs 1" down the mount, that might do it.
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Half Right...

Post  gt1scca on Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:18 pm

OK,
I had to draw it to see the effect of the mount height...
The taller mounts move the bolt hole 7/16" parallel to the mount itself.

Check it...

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Tall mounts will NOT correct this.
I say I'm at least half-right...

(I still say the LTX uprights will work...)

EDIT: Easiest fix = re-drill the set-back plates...
The uprights need to come up also.


Last edited by gt1scca on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:25 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Edit #2)

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X-member differences

Post  xschop on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:40 pm

The X-member motor mount hole spreadwidths all vary also. You can drill the X-member mount holes laterally (up-plane) and fix the problem also. I measured 4 different X-members in the last year and they were all off (up to 1/2" from each other C-2-C). That, and drilling the setback plate to isolator holes down will get you where you need to be. I will make the set back plates myself next time to ensure the mounting holes are the same. I also prefer the 1/2" thick plates because there is no way they will sag later due to the fact there is now a fulcrum force on them up front.
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:57 pm

xschop wrote:The X-member motor mount hole spreadwidths all vary also. You can drill the X-member mount holes laterally (up-plane) and fix the problem also. I measured 4 different X-members in the last year and they were all off (up to 1/2" from each other C-2-C). That, and drilling the setback plate to isolator holes down will get you where you need to be. I will make the set back plates myself next time to ensure the mounting holes are the same. I also prefer the 1/2" thick plates because there is no way they will sag later due to the fact there is now a fulcrum force on them up front.

Yeah 1/2" plates are really mandatory for my application. After bolting multiple setback plates together by tapping/bolting them and getting a good fit on the xmember, I've come to the determination that I need 1/2" plates with the motor mount holes 1/2" to 5/8" back and perhaps 1/16" closer to the edge than the carshopinc plates provide.

I'm going to redrill and tap the heck out of these carshopinc plates until things fit, however, ultimately I will want them in 1/2" form. PM to be sent shortly on that...
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  Bluemach1 on Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:03 am

I read back through but did not see what LS engine this is.

Are all LS engine blocks geometry the same?

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:32 am

Bluemach1 wrote:I read back through but did not see what LS engine this is.

Are all LS engine blocks geometry the same?

Mine is a 2006 5.3L Vortec (L33). I'm pretty sure the geometry is the same since most parts interchange, however I know some differences in manufacturing exist such as some bosses might or might not be tapped, Z06 block as more supports in the casting, etc.

I'll tell you one thing, they vary a heck of a lot less than the geometry of the 944.
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1/2 way there (pun intended)

Post  endrnet on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:29 pm

Ok, so after bolting multiple plates together and getting a good xmember fitment, I starting prepping to test fit the motor in the car by mounting the modded BH adapter and C5 BH.

Whoops, that ain't gonna quite do it, and the carshop plate doesn't have enough material to cover it.

Here's the carshop plate with notes on necessary adjustments to fit the uprights:
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And with an isolator on it, you can see it's 17" from the back of the block to the inside of the of the front isolator tab.

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Unfortunately the BH in the car to the front of the upright is 17.5", seen here.

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So my options at this point are to either weld/bolt the carshop plate to the old plate, forward by 1/2", or design a new 1/2" plate just like the carshop plate, but with the isolator mount shifted towards the front of the motor.

Thoughts? (other than making fun of all the extra/wrong drilling and tapping I did to the carshop plate during fitment testing).


Last edited by endrnet on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : pictures...)
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  RobotMachines on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:58 pm

endrnet wrote:So my options at this point are to either weld/bolt the carshop plate to the old plate, forward by 1/2", or design a new 1/2" plate just like the carshop plate, but with the isolator mount shifted towards the front of the motor.

Thoughts? (other than making fun of all the extra/wrong drilling and tapping I did to the carshop plate during fitment testing).
I'd weld the carshop plate to the old plate (drill holes on one plate and weld/fill them in... very good way to weld plates together). I like to dump plasma all over the place welding things together; not pretty but works. Just go crazy and get it done so you can drive the thing, but make sure to over do it so you don't have to worry about it in the future.

Come on, get it done, these cars are so much fun to drive!

Edit: all work I've done down the road many years later after, eh hem, finishing the hybrid, was not to things I've welded (with the exception of trying to weld a header that was on the car and then cracked further) <-- I don't count that. alien
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  944-LT1 on Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:56 pm

Ill post mine as soon as my cameras battery charges. Laughing Mine seems to fit niiicceeelllyyy. We'll see whats up in a few but looking at your OP, the mounts are far too short in length. My pan is just less than a 1/4" from the bottom of the x-member.

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:11 am

I saw that problem of bolt hole overlap. In my case it was able to be worked around (ironically) because I was sandwiching two plates together so the isolator bolt threaded into the top plate but not so far as to hit the sunken allen bolt. I'm not happy about that solution, but it did allow me to proceed to prove what had to be done to make the uprights I have from xschop work in my case.

Here's the relevant pics and the gratuitous pic I get to email my friends that doubted me at the outset of this project.

Drivers side

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Passenger side

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Gratuitous "I can do it!" pic

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Now I have some serious decisions to make.

1) "Firm" up the two-plate approach with freshly machined parts or even the existing drilled-up plates.
2) Toss the uprights and start over, #$^#$%^@#$^!)(*^!)#$*%^.......
3) ... ?

Hmmm.... thoughts?
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  robstah on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:22 am

So why isn't anyone selling proper setback plates?

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:36 am

robstah wrote:So why isn't anyone selling proper setback plates?
Because of the previously mentioned bolt hole interference? RH makes a custom set...now we get to make our version.

(Give me a minute or 3...I'll show ya)

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:51 am

OK...

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Here's the 1.0" plate on the block...BH face to forward mounting location ~16.5". Yellow holes are new mount locations...black holes showing through plate are the LSX bosses.

THIS is why I say the LTX uprights will work...

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:15 am

gt1scca wrote:OK...

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Here's the 1.0" plate on the block...BH face to forward mounting location ~ 16.5". Yellow holes are new mount locations...black holes showing through plate are the LSX bosses.

THIS is why I say the LTX uprights will work...

I'm not disputing your claim the LT plates could work, however I have the ones I have and I wanted to see what had to be done to make them play ball. Bottom line is that what I've done for this is a total hack.

I think your suggested LTX upright solution is better.
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:36 am

endrnet wrote:...Bottom line is that what I've done for this is a total hack.
I think your suggested LTX upright solution is better.
I was trying to say the same thing...Sorry to sound so pushy, I know how frustrating parts that don't work can be.

Just trying to cover it ALL. As far as the LT uprights...3/8" or so taller. Probably why RH uses the .50" X-Member spacers. And the custom setback plates? A/C compressor...= different mounts for each side.

Rolling Eyes


Last edited by gt1scca on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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L33 difference

Post  xschop on Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:59 am

......Just read the wiki that LS4 engine cranks are 13mm shorter....10mm cut off front and 3mm cut off flywheel.

If you have done the swap, You can't just simply make LS uprights that go from the X-member to the middle of the stock engine plates on the driver's side. You will hit the steering shaft. That and you are then crowding your header space.

The simple solution to Endernet's problem is to move the isolator holes forward 5/8" on the top 2 and weld a tab on the bottom to move the lower isolator bolt hole over 5/8". That's if you are trusting that your TT hasn't sagged backwards due to a worn rear tranny mount before you took your 17.5" tape measurement.
I think at least you should make sure the TT is setting in the correct parallel location before you make a final decision on where to drill the setback plate. If you drill too far forwards, you may be setting your driver's head too close to the firewall/brake setup...keep that in mind.
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:33 am

xschop wrote:...Just read the wiki that LS4 engine cranks are 13mm shorter....10mm cut off front and 3mm cut off flywheel...
Yeah, that should be irrelevant to block casting. If the block casting differences were an issue, motor mounts would overwhelm the aftermarket...
xschop wrote:You can't just simply make LS uprights that go from the X-member to the middle of the stock engine plates on the driver's side. You will hit the steering shaft. That and you are then crowding your header space.
Reason #2 for the set back plates...

BTW, the above dims came from GM's "LS1 Engine Installation Guide"...

Something else from GM...

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:49 am

xschop wrote:......Just read the wiki that LS4 engine cranks are 13mm shorter....10mm cut off front and 3mm cut off flywheel.

If you have done the swap, You can't just simply make LS uprights that go from the X-member to the middle of the stock engine plates on the driver's side. You will hit the steering shaft. That and you are then crowding your header space.


Ahh that makes sense, was wondering why we don't do that.



The simple solution to Endernet's problem is to move the isolator holes forward 5/8" on the top 2 and weld a tab on the bottom to move the lower isolator bolt hole over 5/8". That's if you are trusting that your TT hasn't sagged backwards due to a worn rear tranny mount before you took your 17.5" tape measurement.


Well the front of the car is "up" on jackstands, it's possible the tranny mount is a problem, I haven't really gotten into the tranny. Any quick tips or measurements I can take without disassembling the back end to make sure the mount is holding the tranny in the right spot?

The BH *is* nearly hitting the firewall on the drivers side. How much clearance do you guys have in that location?



I think at least you should make sure the TT is setting in the correct parallel location before you make a final decision on where to drill the setback plate. If you drill too far forwards, you may be setting your driver's head too close to the firewall/brake setup...keep that in mind.

That's probably a good warning to think about. Setback plates are easy to modify. Maybe I should just go ahead and swap the tranny mount to one of the solid ones I've seen on the 944 aftermarket... If it's still 17.5" then, I can be pretty sure it's not sag at that point.
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  endrnet on Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:04 pm

Yeah so... the comment about the tranny mount motivated me a bit. So I pulled the motor again and reached in ... pulled the C5 BH by hand towards the front of the car. I went from 17.5" to the front of the upright to 17 1/16".

Wow. If I were an experienced car mechanic I'd have to eat my hat on that one.

Embarassed

On the other hand, what it means is that my tranny mount was probably just sagging back, partly due to smacking it with the 944 motor as I pulled it, and partly due to the 20deg angle the car is sitting (rear tires on the ground, jackstands up front).

It never occurred to me that the tranny mount would be that flexible to shift by a 1/2".


So I still need 1/2" plates for these uprights, but all I need is the probably the carshopinc dims at that depth. This is a FAR more attractive problem to solve than stacked bolts.
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  944-LT1 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:54 pm

Heres mine. 2009 LS3. Carshopinc plates, RH LT1 uprights (was used for my LT1 engine for years), stock replacement motor mount isolators, moroso 20140 pan.

The pictures are of everything bolted up and tight. Looks like I really dont need to mod the oil pan on the drivers side but know that I will have to as the engine will sink into the mounts with its full weight on them.

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:25 pm

944-LT1 wrote:...LT1 uprights (was used for my LT1 engine for years), stock replacement motor mount isolators, ...
GOLDEN.

You rock MK...
(Nice, easy, and I was right...)

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  944-LT1 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:44 pm

yess....I DO rock!

So what the difference between my uprights and these others? According to the manual, the length from x-member to isolator of the uprights are 5.62" at 60 degrees.

Mine are 6.625" in length at 60 degrees. So, you guys are missing an inch in length.

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Post  gt1scca on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:20 pm

944-LT1 wrote:...the length from x-member to isolator of the uprights are 5.62" at 60 degrees.
Mine are 6.625" in length at 60 degrees. So, you guys are missing an inch in length.
That's the diff, then...

You're using the .25" set back plates, right? .50" thick plates with the LT mounts and .50" "disc" spacer @ bottom would be one method, but the 6.625" @ 60* dim is so easy to change "it just ain't funny"...

Razz


Last edited by gt1scca on Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:59 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

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