HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Basic Racing Questions

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Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:03 am

Hello all,

I have never done a track day, only a good deal of Auto-X.  What are the regulations as far as 948's go?  What sort of events allow these cars, which classes etc.  I really don't know much about the regulating bodies, but I want to learn and possibly start participating.  

I'm also curious about which safety equipment is required, and how to make sure you buy/install the right gear with the correct certifications.  Anyone can buy a harness bar/harness and think they're extra safe, when in fact the factory 3pt is way safer.  My only safety related modifications are Corbeau seats, since my stock seats were trashed.  I am considering a half cage or something so that I can use a harness for a track day, but I understand I shouldn't mount the harness to the cage directly, instead use it as a guide and then use the rear seat belt mounting points.

Any pointers or resources would be really helpful!  Does anyone know of good places to run in the northern New England area?  Maybe talking to a specific track would be the place to start!

Thanks,

Luke
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Techno Duck on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:57 am

New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock and if your up to the drive, NJMP and Pocono.

A good place to start is checking your local PCA region for track days. Its not racing, but you will get seat time which is key. There are no regulations or required safety equipment other than a rigidly mounted fire extinguisher. As long as the car is in decent mechanical shape you are good to go. However there are rules regarding equal restraints for both passenger and driver. So if you put harnesses and aftermarket seats in the car, both the driver and passenger (your instructor) need them.

The run groups are split up based on experience, car does not matter. I have seen a 914 pass newer 911's before! Like i said its not racing, but more like an open lapping day.

Harnesses are ok to mount to a cage, infact better to do that because mounting to the seatbelt points makes the belts longer. Longer belts stretch more. What you cant do is attach to a harness bar.. you need a solid mounting point like a cage or the Redline Rennsport harness bar. I know, i just said dont mount to a harness bar, but the Redline Rennsport bar is a different story.

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  cjbcpa on Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:09 pm

Luke,

Generally, no modifications are necessary to run your car at a HPDE (High Performance Drives Education) event. The Porsche or BMW club in your region likely has a schedule events listed on their website either now or soon once 2014 is finalized. They will also have information on their requirements for putting your car on the track. As a new DE driver, they will be minimal. Once you gain experience and move up into the faster run groups, more safety equipment will be recommended or required. More than likely, you will need to have your car inspected, or "teched" by an approved shop which will give the car a basic functional and safety review. You'll also need a DOT 2005 or 2010 helmet which you may already have from AX.

My region is a bit far from you, but we have a very active DE program. Check out the DE section of our site for lots of background. We go to Watkins Glen, Pocono and NJMP every season. I often see a number of 948's (mostly the rear-end as I haven't done my conversion yet). Check out:

Riesentoter Region PCA
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  money pit 951 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:31 am

As others have said, PCA/BMW drivers ed is a great way to start getting some seat time on a track. PCA so far has been open to my LS1 and just a few of the air cooled guys thumb their nose at it even more than they did a factory water cooled Porsche

As for racing, the 948 is not a car you want to jump into wheel to wheel racing with. You'll be thrown into an open class and it will be really swimming with the sharks (not referring to 928's here). If you want to get into wheel to wheel racing, I would suggest something cheap to start (spec 944 SP1/2 or something). It's a great racing class and you'll have more fun/less frustration with a spec car then you will a 948 IMHO.

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:23 pm

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies! Having the track names is helpful, and I'll keep an eye on the PCA schedule. I don't really see many events for the summer posted yet, but I suppose that will change as it draws closer. I don't really want to do wheel to wheel racing right now, just time on a track. I've put too much work into this car. Driving courses is really what I would like to do, it seems to help so much to take a formal class to get you started anyway.

In the meantime I need to:
1. Buy a better helmet
2. Figure out howto relocate the 3pt seat belt buckles a bit to fit better with the larger Corbeau bolsters. There are lap belt cutouts, are 3pt stock belts ever laced through those? They work ok going over the bolsters, but for really skinny folks I worry about it not going over the hips well enough.
3. Fire extinguisher
4. Power brakes
5. Maybe in the future buy a half roll cage and a set of 4pt harnesses
6. I'm worried about how the seats and harnesses are attached to the rest of the car. It's just 4 (I'f I remember right) 1/4-20 sized bolts that hold the sliders to the floor. The belt attachements are then attached to this slider. Is problematic? For the lap belt of a proper 4pt are there different attachment points that are recommended?

Cheers,

Luke
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  cjbcpa on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:48 pm

Re: the seatbelts.

I know a number of clubs, mine included, will not permit harnesses unless the seats were designed for them. This effectively forces many folks to change out stock seats when the want to use harnesses due to the lack of pass-throughs for the shoulder straps. Don't know if this works in reverse, but it isn't hard to imagine that stock seat belts are less than 100% effective when wrapped around most racing seats I've seen.

There are a number of harness bar solutions for the 944 that will give you a cost effective method of installing harnesses. Google "Brey-Krause" for one. Keep in mind that harnesses for PCA DE have to be within their 5 year life-span. I think most AX programs don't have this restriction and many drivers use expired harnesses. (Don't get me started on the whole argument of expired harnesses on racing seats versus 25+ year old seat belts on stock seats).

Also, PCA requires the passenger seat (i.e. your instructor's seat) to have the same/similar type of restraints as the driver. No fair having your instructor flop around in stock belts while you are held in tightly by harnesses.

Alternatively, you could swap stock seats back into your car for the first couple of events just to get started. Nothing like bracing yourself with knees and elbows for a weekend to make you see the wisdom of harnesses and proper seats.

Lastly, four point harness are OK for AX but insufficient for DE. You won't pass tech without the 5 or 6 point variety. Most of these sort of details are spelled out on the region website in the DE section, especially on the tech form. It'd be a bummer to get to the track, fail tech and never get on the track. Join your region and go to some meetings, track people are very helpful. We're like a 12 step program for aspiring addicts!


CB
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Lemming on Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:04 am

I do not like 4, 5, or 6 point harnesses in cars without a roll bar or cage. If the car rolls, you are held in the upright position that's not a good thing without at least a roll bar.
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:27 pm

I can understand that. I probably won't just put in harnesses without a roll bar.  Are there any rules or regulations for roll bars and cages for PCA DE events or open track days in general?  Is weld in the only way to go, or are some of these OK?  

http://www.andysautosport.com/roll_bars/porsche_944.html

Again, I won't be doing any real racing with this, but a lot of DE, and if I get harnesses to keep myself in place I might as well do it up right.  I don't need the trunk space.

Also, what have people done for the anti-submarine belt and lap belt mounting points? Just on the seat slider?

Thanks,

Luke
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Lemming on Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:03 pm

Look up John Hajny, or redline man for a rollbar. http://www.redlinerennsport.com/SafeguardPage.html
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  money pit 951 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:13 pm

Bill Doyle close to you in Boston and is a great cage builder. He will also install it if you drop the car off to him. We used him for our 944 chump car to bend up the tubing but we welded it in. http://cagethis.com/

If you want a very nice cage, I used these guys for my LS1 http://www.customcages.co.uk/homepage It's a CNC bent up cage that fits well and can be FIA certified (not that you need it, but it's nice to know someone has inspected it)
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:16 am

Thanks for the tips, I like the look of that red line roll bar a lot
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  docwyte on Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:23 pm

I had a Redline "Roll" bar for a bit. John is a nice guy and he build very nice cages, but this "Roll" bar is nothing more than a really heavy HARNESS bar.

No testing has been done, it's not been given the stamp of approval by any organization and I certainly wouldn't want to trust it in the event of a crash.

Go big or go home. Avoid this bar, the bolt in Autopower rollbar and any other bolt in rollbar. Either go entirely without or get a properly designed, welded rollbar made/installed by someone who knows what they're doing.

I'd have no issue letting John put in a welded rollbar in my car, but this bolt in thing he has is worthless.


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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:36 am

So just in case someday I decide to do more serious racing what agencies need to approve my safety equipment?  Ie ANSI for harnesses, SNELL for helmets, etc?  

docwyte wrote:I had a Redline "Roll" bar for a bit.  John is a nice guy and he build very nice cages, but this "Roll" bar is nothing more than a really heavy HARNESS bar.

No testing has been done, it's not been given the stamp of approval by any organization and I certainly wouldn't want to trust it in the event of a crash.

Go big or go home.  Avoid this bar, the bolt in Autopower rollbar and any other bolt in rollbar.  Either go entirely without or get a properly designed, welded rollbar made/installed by someone who knows what they're doing.  

I'd have no issue letting John put in a welded rollbar in my car, but this bolt in thing he has is worthless.


It was mentioned that the redline roll bar may not be certified by the appropriate groups, what stamp of approval would I be looking for in a roll bar so as not to limit my options in the future?  FIA? (Which stands for what?)

I notice that a lot of the serious setups have the bars past the doors, are any weld in cages that are just behind the seats not really good for anything beyond autoX and DE?  If I'm still using this car for other things besides racing I don't want to deal with the cage in front of the seats.

Thanks,

Luke
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  docwyte on Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:52 am

I just have a half cage, nothing that goes forward past the doors. The difference is my rollbar is welded into place on structural steel. The back legs go to the rear subframe, the front legs to the side rockers.

All of the bolt in rollbars attach to the weakest parts of the car, the floor pan and the wheel wells, which are single layer steel. They try to spread the load using sandwich plates, but those simply aren't big enough, they'll punch through.

Search for the roll over pictures of the Mustang at Hallett. That was an Autopower rollbar...

My point is as far as safety goes, the bolt in bars simply are worthless. Go to someone who knows what they're doing and have a proper, welded rollbar installed. Bear in mind it's not cheap...

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:02 am

docwyte wrote:I just have a half cage, nothing that goes forward past the doors.  The difference is my rollbar is welded into place on structural steel.  The back legs go to the rear subframe, the front legs to the side rockers.

All of the bolt in rollbars attach to the weakest parts of the car, the floor pan and the wheel wells, which are single layer steel.  They try to spread the load using sandwich plates, but those simply aren't big enough, they'll punch through.

Search for the roll over pictures of the Mustang at Hallett.  That was an Autopower rollbar...

My point is as far as safety goes, the bolt in bars simply are worthless.  Go to someone who knows what they're doing and have a proper, welded rollbar installed.  Bear in mind it's not cheap...

Yeah, I understand the engineering problems behind the bolt in bars.  I won't go with that now knowing that they aren't certified.  However, I'm sure that there are guys "who know what they're doing" but still don't have a certified product.  Is there a standard certification that weld in bars need to meet to do anything beyond DE?  I'm mainly wondering who certifies.  I suppose the exact specification varies by event, so I can't ask that yet.

Cheers,

Luke
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:03 am

P.S. Also good to know that I won't necessarily have to run the cage in front of the seats. Thanks.
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  docwyte on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:05 am

Well, the Autopower rollcage, even though it's a bolt in, is certified for SCCA racing. Most any cage builder won't necessarily have their stuff "certified" but should be able to tell you about other work they've done that's been accepted by the race organizations.

Once the car is done, it gets tech'ed by whatever organization you're racing with and they "certify" it. As long as your builder builds to the regs and has had previous cars get passed by tech you'll be fine.

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:14 am

docwyte wrote:Well, the Autopower rollcage, even though it's a bolt in, is certified for SCCA racing.  Most any cage builder won't necessarily have their stuff "certified" but should be able to tell you about other work they've done that's been accepted by the race organizations.

Once the car is done, it gets tech'ed by whatever organization you're racing with and they "certify" it.  As long as your builder builds to the regs and has had previous cars get passed by tech you'll be fine.

Awesome, thanks. I guess I'll do some DE and then figure out if I ever want to do more than that so I can tell a builder what events I'm interested in. What do you do with your 948, just DE?

I'm still concerned about the lap belt on my stock 3pt. I hope I don't have to get new seats... Maybe I can route them through the lap belt holes and be just fine. Either that or I buy a proper cage first so that I can run harnesses safely, but then there is the risk the cage won't pass muster for something I want to do in the future.
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  docwyte on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:29 am

I time trial my car. So against the clock, with other cars on track at the same time, but (theoretically) no car to car contact.

I have my 3 point belt routed through the outer hole of my race seat and I had to make a plate to extend the female receptacle on the inner lap attachment point.

It's hard to go part way on the safety stuff as everything works together. So if you're plan is to just use the stock belts, it's much easier to stick with stock seats, or a stock like reclining seat like a Recaro Speed.

Once you've made the decision to go to a fixed back racing seat, then you make the jump to a proper rollbar and 6 point harnesses.

Stay away from the 4 point harnesses, most organizations won't let you use them.

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  kevin12973 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:42 pm

I use the rollbar from Hankville hot rods. They have been doing these cage/ roll bar kits for a while and are accepted by many organizations. I got the 4 point kit with an optional diagonal rear brace. the best part is later if you want to race you simply order the completion kit to turn it to full cage! A tip, upgrade to the larger tubing(1 3/4"), its lighter because its thinner but same strength. These are weld in kits so final acceptance is per a competent install/weld job. I was very pleased with their product and have got many complements on it.
Been doing DE's for two years up here in the NE. I will be up to NHMS april 12 and 13. Hope to see you there!

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  docwyte on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:43 am

I'm lucky enough to live 10 minutes from Hanksvilles Hotrods. Was there yesterday for their Daytona 500 party in fact.

Hank did my welded rollbar in my 944 and most of the 944 Spec roll cages that race in our area. He does great work and stands behind his products.

Like you I also went with the 1.75" tubing and diagonal bracing.

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Re: Basic Racing Questions

Post  Luke714 on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:12 am

docwyte wrote:I'm lucky enough to live 10 minutes from Hanksvilles Hotrods.  Was there yesterday for their Daytona 500 party in fact.

Hank did my welded rollbar in my 944 and most of the 944 Spec roll cages that race in our area.  He does great work and stands behind his products.

Like you I also went with the 1.75" tubing and diagonal bracing.

I will definitely look him up when the time comes! Thank you
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Cage

Post  kevin924kevin on Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:23 pm

Hi all, Hanks makes a great cage system, i purchaced for my car, up here in Gold Medal land (Canada), fits very nice and will allow full interior. Cant go wrong with his products, they also made my new cross member for the back of the car.
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Re: Basic Racing Questions

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