HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Automatic Transmission rebuild

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Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:08 pm

Has anyone had or have rebuilt an automatic transmission? Any upgrades?
Stewart? Shocked

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  87-944S on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:30 pm

I've only done shift kits, bearings, clutch plate and torque converter replacements on big old American cars. None of it was extremely hard, just really needed to keep track of things. It can be a real challenge to get a manual for rebuilding them.

Aren't these autotrans a common item used by other manufacturers? Maybe locating a used one would be easier, parts tend to be crazy expensive, at least that has been my experience, but it has very long time since I worked on one.
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:38 pm

That automatic started as the ever common 010 VW unit back in the '70s. With the diff section the 944 version is called the 087/010 and was also used in the turbo Audi 5000; 100 & 200 having more clutches (5 front/4 rear) and 4 planetary gears (vs. 3 for the many other versions) giving it stronger internals than the original VW 010 automatic section. The 087/010 also has ports for external ATF cooling.

The folks that toughen up these slush boxes use the stronger Raybestos clutches, Kevlar brake band and always replace the pump. You probably should upgrade the convertor while you're in there.

The evolution of the 087/010 automatics ended on the ’89 -’91 Audi 200 FWD Turbo…which appears identical to the 944 automatic, but has a more desirable 3.08 R&P, comes with even larger 108mm axle flanges with a diff housing that allows room for the larger flanges so you can use with a turbo 930 CV type setup mating to aftermarket stub axles. Probably not necessary for a daily driver but a possibility nevertheless.

From stuff I've read the guy to talk to is Jeff Field of Transaxle Engineering (818) 998-2739

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:55 am

Awesome info thanks...

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  v8carreragts on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Here is a thread from another forum where the auto was beefed up.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=33585&highlight=automatic+transmission
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Interesting post…it confirmed my suspicions that the early 924 automatic had the weaker internals…and btw, I never knew that it wasn’t externally cooled either. heh..heh..I see they mention Jeff Field too.

If it’s for a daily driver I don’t think I would want to modify it for ‘hard shifting’…or course for racing its fine.

Actually, I wonder what would need to be done to have 1st gear work only if manually chosen.

For example if ‘drive’ is selected, just start in '2nd gear' sorta like the ever popular GM Powerglide 2 speed automatics which behaved as lacking a 1st gear...and many of these GM Powerglide models came with a 2.56 diff ratio (even the 6 cyliders) yet still had amazing acceleration…(and popular with the Chevy drag racing crowd even today).

With such a strong (yet flat torque curve) it seems to makes perfect sense. Drivability with a very smooth feeling yet will spin the rear wheels anytime you want.

With all that V8 torque I don't think you need no stinkin’ 1st gear !


Last edited by 944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:31 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  v8carreragts on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:34 pm

I's probably possible to do what you want. Although 2nd gear really isn't quite high enough. The Powerglide had 1.76 and 1.82 first with 1.0 second. The racing parts available go down to 1.68. But when they use these for racing they are used with very high R & P ratios like 4.88 and higher.

It looks like the US 944 has the best ratios for the street at 2.55; 1.44 and 1.0 with 3.45 R & P and you could always have the 924 3.72 or the Euro 3.08. If I were going to use one for the street I would use the 944 with a 924 R & P because of the cam I am using. The US 944 also has 2800 RPM stall (which would be somewhat higher with a V8) The converter could be sent to be modified (furnace brazed turbine torrington thrust bearings etc.)

I always build my street autos to shift pretty hard. I like it that way.

The 944 auto could be made to take some abuse I think. I haven't seen one in person but I did one years ago for a VW Type III (same basic trans) A v8 auto 944 could be cool
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:49 pm

Your point is well taken...IMHO I still think we need to take into account how much lighter the 944 is compared to race cars running these old school powerglides and the 4.88 ratio is clearly used for drag racing.

Since my project is using a L92 6.2L, I am considering the high torque being developed at even low rpms (~400 ft lbs)...but compared to any 4 cylinder...any LS series torque should be factored in.


Last edited by 944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  v8carreragts on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:09 pm

If you could get a Euro trans you would get 2.714 first and 1.500 second. This might be doable. The euro has a 3.08 R & P and 2200 stall converter.
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:14 pm

If you could get a Euro trans you would get 2.714 first and 1.500 second. This might be doable. The euro has a 3.08 R & P and 2200 stall converter.
I like those numbers Very Happy

btw...the ’89 -’91 Audi 200 FWD Turbo 087/010 specs I mentioned above are:
1st = 2.71:1
2nd=1.50:1
3rd=1.00:1
Final Drive=3.08

This transmission was designed for a 4 cylinder in which a low ratio 1st gear was mandatory.

I think we agree...doable...not to mention the larger 108mm (930 turbo sized) axle flanges

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:51 pm

Do you think I could swap in one of the Audi transmissions and make it work? Would the audi 200 that you mentioned above bolt right in, with axle change of course? Is it electronically controlled? what about the 4 speed auto in the audi, Is it electronic? I'm just looking at all possibilities my transmission guy seemed to shy away from the Porsche transmission, as far as rebuilding it for me....
I would like to find a direct bolt in replacement. Do you know where I could get a rebuild kit for my 944 trans? I can't seem to find a complete kit anywhere, only gaskets.

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  v8carreragts on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:37 pm

The problem with the AUDI trans is the same with the manual. The input shaft is different from the 944. I believe it is smaller on the auto as well. It also isn't the same length--shorter I think.

The 944 shouldn't be any problem to a regular trans guy. It is very much like a Powerglide. And If I were building one I would look at cutting down the pistons or the top plates so additional clutches could be installed.

Usually I buy my parts from the local trans shop but when they don't have the parts (like when I did the 5 spd Tiptronic from my wife's old AUDI) I just looked on E-bay and online. I was able to find everything for the Tiptronic including the broken drum. You should also be able to find and buy the 4 vs 3 pinion planitary.

I am not aware of any 4 speed AUDI auto's that are not electronic. The Tiptronic would be a real project to fit into your car. I would not even consider one myself. After doing the one from my wife's old A6 I learned that they are a real POS. They have many problems that will come back regardless of how you build it. There is a drum that is thin aluminum -- the one that broke in my wifes. The guy at the Factory importer of ZF auto trans parts told me what part I needed before I told him. The converter lock-up clutch has a flawed piston seal that starts leaking and can cause the trans to fail. It is very common for the AUDI crowd to replace them with the O1E 6 speed on the 2.7L biturbo cars.

I remember reading about someone that used one in a 914 -- actually he used the twin turbo AUDI A6 2.7 and the Tiptronic. But I don't recall reading about the car being finished. It was on a 914 forum.
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:20 pm

v8carreragts wrote:The problem with the AUDI trans is the same with the manual. The input shaft is different from the 944. I believe it is smaller on the auto as well. It also isn't the same length--shorter I think.

I am aware of Audi 6 speeds v. Porsche 968 6 speeds per:

http://12v.org/urs/charlie_smith/01E/Por968/index.htm


edit: I do recall the difference with the manual...I'll double check an Audi vs. a 944 automatic and let you know what I find.

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:36 pm

ahhh it's all coming back to me now...that the 5 speed FWD Audi input shaft of course has the pilot bearing compatible tip needed to inset into the crankshaft's pilot bearing but I'm told the 5 speed FWD Audi would still work in the 944 mating to the rear TT shaft's coupler. I do have an manual Audi 5 speed up in the back of my shop's loft and one of these days will confirm the input shaft length.

Today I measured the '91 turbo FWD Audi 087/010 automatic input shaft and the 944 087/010 automatic input shaft. Both input shafts are identical which makes sense since the Audi mounts directly the engine crankshaft up front using a flex plate mounted torque converter (4 bolt) ...and automatics usually need no pilot bearing.

The 944 mounts directly the torque tube in the rear, using a flex plate mounted torque converter (3 bolt). The 3 bolt torque converter from the 944 would need to be used instead of the Audi four bolt (yes, it fits perfectly) unless you want to do a lot of custom machining to make the 3 bolt flex plate a 4 bolt flex plate.

Notice...the rear flex plate attaches to the rear TT bell housing with bolt bosses that make the automatic's TT different from the manual's TT as those bosses are not machined.

Also the front of the automatic's drive shaft DOES HAS a pilot bearing compatible tip like the manual's, yet the splines are set back a bit further so they line up with the rubber flex damper...this should be checked if you are replacing that big rubber donut thingy with a closed PP/Clutch disk setup.

There is a Chevrolet Performance p/n 12563532 Crankshaft Spacer that would move the flywheel out and may help the disk splines line up better...I don't know for sure.

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Admin wrote:Has anyone had or have rebuilt an automatic transmission? Any upgrades?
Stewart? Shocked
mine is an 86 n/a and was rebuilt and its very simular to a powerglide i had kevlar clutches installed and made a reinforcment plate for the tourqe converter flexplate .the tv cable needs adjusted correctly.i have a early sbc and am using a 10.5 in flywheel and pressure plate and a brass button style 23 spline stock car clutch disk to mate to driveshaft .i had to use a spacer adapter for the pilot shaft with the roller bearing.i also use a c5 2 piece bellhousing and one of xshops tourqe tube adapter plates. pirat the splines of the shaft slide into the clutch just fine .the shaft protudes the same distance from the flange of the tourqe tube as a manuel style tourqe tube.its been awhile since i had it apart.ive put several thousand miles with no problems.it is low geared and shifts from first to second very fast.ive broke one half shaft on the pass side once .im putting well over 500 hp power to the trans .on a short track it would be awesome.its fairly quick on the dragstrip running in the 7 sec 1/8 mile range pretty consistant.i drove several miles with over a 100000 miles on the trans before i rebuilt it and that was running pretty hard .it was only when i blew up my second sbc motor i put in it that i rebuilt it.im now on my fourth engine.trans is holding up very well. i would have to say its a fairly stout piece for a trans designed for a four cylinder.a overdrive would be nice it only tops out at 140mph.but for a driver around town it works pretty good. i have several vehicles so i dont drive very much and im working on a turbo setup for it now.then we will see how long the trans will last.


Last edited by stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:21 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:06 pm

So with that being said, I should be able to get the Audi turbo automatic transmission and use it in place of the 944's trans. Would it be as strong? Also what would the differential ratio be in one of those ? What about the stall numbers for the torque converter? I have a torque converter builder that could swap halves of the torque converter for me to get the right bolt pattern, I would like to get the stall down to a V8 respectable number.
Thanks for all you help.

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:19 pm

Stewart,
Give me hope!please.....
Does the TV cable have to be hooked up for it to shift properly?
Everything that I read said it was only for the kick down.
The trans will not shift from first to second hardly at all. real sluggish . It worked perfectly before the swap.
Thanks

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:23 pm

Admin wrote:Stewart,
Give me hope!please.....
Does the TV cable have to be hooked up for it to shift properly?
Everything that I read said it was only for the kick down.
The trans will not shift from first to second hardly at all. real sluggish . It worked perfectly before the swap.
Thanks
yes it does need to be hooked up as far as i know to shift and or to downshift such as a turbo 350 does i had to experiment to get mine just right on the adjustment but im pretty sure it has to be hooked up or it wont shift right .i believe even the factory manuel like haynes states that


Last edited by stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:25 pm

Thanks
Where did you source your rebuild parts from? Or are the the same as the Chevy parts? Like easy to interchange....

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:30 pm

Admin wrote:Thanks
Where did you source your rebuild parts from? Or are the the same as the Chevy parts? Like easy to interchange....
im not sure my trans guy ordered them from somewhere im thinking he used the original steels and put new fricton disks in. and all new gaskets and orings .you should be able to get a rebuild kit from that porshe parts site i cant think of name of it il have to lookj on my other computer he said it was still in good shape even with 100000 miles.thats been several years ago.the 944 auto trans is a very stout piece for what it is and they say it will hold 400 hp easy
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:02 pm

makco transmisions carries rebuild kits.it is a vw 010,087,090 trans which is widley used with audi porsche and vw.it uses a 5in friction disk i still hope its the tv cable.im pretty sure its gota be hooked up.i made my own mount to make mine work.it is also refered to as transmision throtle control presure cable.and from what im reading in my manuel is that if not adjusted properly trans wont shift correctly so it basicly means that it must be hooked up as it controls line pressure in valve body
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:59 pm

stuart f. wright wrote:makco transmisions carries rebuild kits.it is a vw 010,087,090 trans which is widley used with audi porsche and vw.it uses a 5in friction disk i still hope its the tv cable.im pretty sure its gota be hooked up.i made my own mount to make mine work.it is also refered to as transmision throtle control presure cable.and from what im reading in my manuel is that if not adjusted properly trans wont shift correctly so it basicly means that it must be hooked up as it controls line pressure in valve body
http://www.9ss1.dk/porsche944/garage/vol2/vol2.htm
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  944convert on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:18 am

hmm...I had to copy & paste that link but it got me there ;-)

The operative phase in the factory manual is:

If necessary, adjust cable (see page 37 - 11)

The section is titled:

ADJUSTING THROTTLE AND CONTROL PRESSURE CABLE

But as Stuart says it takes trial & error to get it right.

Section 37 starts with the Technical Detail. For the Final Drive Ratios "12/37 (11/38)" just divide...so they equal 3.08 (3.45). You can count the teeth on each gear and do the same.

Also..

Converter code

J (K)

Stall speed

.2200 +- 200 rpm
(2800 +- 200 rpm)

On the converter you will see the letter stamped either J or K

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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  stuart f. wright on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:04 am

hey admin just wondering if the trans cable solved your problem with your car
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Re: Automatic Transmission rebuild

Post  Admin on Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:43 pm

I did not have time to hook it up on Friday, and we have been out of town all weekend. I plan to try to get it hooked up on Monday.

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