HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Clutch won't disengage

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Arthropraxis on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:01 pm

You need a blind hole bearing puller. Advance auto rents a kit to install/remove the vibration damper, IIRC the bearing puller is included in the kit.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:59 pm

This thread has me scared frankly. I'm at the same point as supes6 right now, the car runs but the clutch does not disengage fullly. I've been trying to get the clutch bled for little while now. I was not able to bench bleed the new clutch MC before install so I hope my issue is just air somewhere. I've tried to pressure bleed from above with mixed results. I made a custom cap for my pressure bleeder but it will not hold much pressure due to the design of the cap. I can gravity bleed a ton but I'm not sure that would get stuck air out. I think my two options now are buddy bleed with the help of a neighbor or I was considering bleeding from the slave up. I can get a clear plastic hose to fit over the bleeder on the slave and push fluid up. Anyone know if this is a bad idea? I think I saw someone suggest this once since air wants to go up, not down. Thoughts?

My set up is: new stock MC with the rod adjusted out for no play, slave/TO from Admin, stock LS1 flywheel, ACT pressure plate and clutch disc from Admin. Also I have the 11mm pilot bearing and I measured the exposed length of the drive shaft very carefully prior to putting the engine in. My measurements were exactly what xschop diagrams showed (whatever that length was, can't remeber now).

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Arthropraxis on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:11 pm

How bad is it? Can you drive it? Mine is stiff getting into first at a stop and into second while driving. Other than that is it fine. I switched to Redline MT-90 over the weekend and it made a huge difference.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Admin on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:38 pm

Have you adjusted out the push rod any? I usually do that on most of the cars I build, as it always seems that the clutch pedal throw just isn't enough to get total disengagement. Just a half turn or so.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Arthropraxis on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:07 pm

I adjusted the pushrod out until there was resistance to turning the rod. I did turn it out some more but it didn't seem to make much difference and I was concerned about having too much preload on the MC. There may be an internal issue to the transmission. If I shift into third at a stop then into first it goes in with no resistance.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:48 pm

I adjusted the push rod when I put the MC in but that was more than 2 months ago! I'll check it again.

I have not tried to drive it yet, it's on jacks so I just tried to drive the wheels while in the air. Basically I can put it into first - with effort- with the clutch depressed and the wheels start turning before I let the clutch out. Getting it into gear is not as easy as it should be, I assume because the clutch is not disengaged. Reverse is not possible at all without crunching.



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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  xschop on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:34 pm

I've always though the remote TOB bleeder lines were a bad idea as you have the head pressure from the volumn of the bleeder line working against you. I just use the factory bleed outlet and have it loose by hand and had a neighbor kid pump the clutch pedal as I worked the bleed valve by hand until air was gone then tightened with 11mm wrench. This was with the 7/8" and 13/16" Willwood MC's.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  87-944S on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:37 pm

I have a remote bleed line with a speed bleeder attached, works great! No issues with clutch and shifter, I am using a Wilwood M/C, can't remember the size, but one of those you mentioned Rob. Smile
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:46 pm

Sorry to hijack your post supes6.

Last night I pressure bled the system from the bottom up - I ran a tube form my pressure bleeder to the long bleed port on the slave. Once I had pressure I opened the bleeder and watched fluid rise up into the reservoir. Once the reservoir filled up I closed the bleeder, suctioned out the fluid with a turkey baster, and did it again. I was not close enough to the reservoir during the process to be able to see if there were any large bubbles so I went for overkill and did the process 5 times. I'd say I ran at least a cup of fluid through the system.

I also adjusted the clutch push rod. Basically I set it "neutral" as a starting point, where the rod would slip on/off the peddle easily. I put the rod on and gave it 1/2 - 3/4 turn so that it slightly pre-loaded the peddle to ensure I am getting enough travel to release the clutch.

After all that I still don't have a working clutch. Again the car is on jacks - I start the car, depress the clutch and select first. As I push it into first, the wheels start turning with the clutch still depressed. This all makes me depressed. Mad

I assume the next step is to take off the lower half of the bell housing and see if I have movement of the disc away from the flywheel. If anyone has any other ideas before I take it apart I'd love to hear them. Thanks for the help so far.

Thanks.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Rich L. on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:46 pm

If you pull the inspection cover you can measure the movement of the slave cylinder. My first try I was only getting 1/4" and was having the same trouble with the synchros spinning up the rear wheels even with the clutch depressed. My second try I got 3/8" to 1/2" of travel at the slave which solved the problem.

All this detailed here:
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  948inVA on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:11 pm

Sounds very much like my problem. FWIW, I think the clutch was pretty easy to bleed with the motive bleeder and remote bleed line. My problem all along was the faulty clutch disc. If you pull the inspection cover and have someone push the pedal while you watch the slave you'll have your answer. Really wish I had caught the problem earlier (or been sent the correct disc). Would have saved me a whole weekend of work basically.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:40 pm

Thanks guys. I called ACT, they say they do not require shims, so I hope that is not my issue. I looked at a picture that I took during assembly of my slave installed on the TT adaptor, I don't remember it protruding due one of the bolts and it looks flush in the picture. I'll get to work pulling the lower cover and report back. I wish I could do it tonight but I have to put a cylinder head back on a BMW Chump Car tonight. Too many car projects not enough time.....


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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:49 pm

Update: I had some time to get the bell housing lower cover off and my wife pushed the clutch for me. Good news - the slave is working fine and pushes on the pressure plate fingers like its supposed to. Its hard to get a ruler or caliper in there but I measured 9mm of slave travel.
Bad news - the clutch disc does not move away from the flywheel. I can see the springs on the outside of the pressure plate flex but it looks like the entire essembly is stuck together.

I talked to a classic car mechanic friend who says stuck clutches happen to his clients cars all the time. When the car sits he says they pressure plate, disc, and flywheel seize together. My car has been sitting for a few months without the clutch being actuated - ever. Ive never had this happen to my cars but it seems plausible I guess. He suggested driving the car and applying the power to get the clutch free again. Or, since the lower bell housing is off I could back the pressure plate bolts out to make some room, pry the pieces apart, and torque the pressure plate bolts back down. Any thoughts before I take it apart or go trying to break it loose by driving?

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Porschedoc on Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:02 am

rooster wrote:Update: I had some time to get the bell housing lower cover off and my wife pushed the clutch for me. Good news - the slave is working fine and pushes on the pressure plate fingers like its supposed to. Its hard to get a ruler or caliper in there but I measured 9mm of slave travel.
Bad news - the clutch disc does not move away from the flywheel. I can see the springs on the outside of the pressure plate flex but it looks like the entire essembly is stuck together.

I talked to a classic car mechanic friend who says stuck clutches happen to his clients cars all the time. When the car sits he says they pressure plate, disc, and flywheel seize together. My car has been sitting for a few months without the clutch being actuated - ever. Ive never had this happen to my cars but it seems plausible I guess. He suggested driving the car and applying the power to get the clutch free again. Or, since the lower bell housing is off I could back the pressure plate bolts out to make some room, pry the pieces apart, and torque the pressure plate bolts back down. Any thoughts before I take it apart or go trying to break it loose by driving?

When did you get your clutch disc from Eric? I ordered mine around the 1st of the year, got the kit in late Feb IIRC, and it had the hub protruding on the flywheel side that had to be ground down. I think you have the same issue if the disc is stuck. I've NEVER seen a new clutch setup *stick* before. A rusted one is a different story. It just seems to me like your hub is resting on the pilot bearing as well.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:08 am

I ordered my parts from TPC February of this year so I suppose if bad discs were going out around that time then I could have one too. Unfortunately I did not take pictures of the disc itself before I installed it. I do however have a faint memory of what the disc looked like; what I remember was that one side had the hub protruding and on the other side, the hub area was flush with the surface. I remember thinking, 'oh, the flush side must face the flywheel since it would never fit the opposite way.' I did look at a picture I took of the back of the engine with the clutch installed. I can zoom in and see the hub protrusion on the pressure plate side. If anyone can confirm that this is what their disc looked like that would help. I hope I'm not just dreaming this up to diluting myself into thinking I have the correct disc.

One more thing that I can't figure out, my pressure plate and disc will not pull away from the flywheel even though the slave is working properly. This is not the same issue that supes6 had, he could see the gap between the clutch pieces when the peddle was pressed - I cannot. I'm not saying my disc may not be bad, I'm just trying to understand why a protruding hub on the flywheel side would keep the pressure plate from releasing like it should. I may have to take it all apart anyway but if there's a possibility it's something else I'd like to rule it out before I pull the exhaust, trans, TT, etc.

Sorry for the long ramble I'm just frustrated. Again, thanks for all the help.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  spence on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:48 pm

How far does your throwout bearing / slave sit from the pressure plate fingers at rest? Did you measure before you installed?
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  948inVA on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:54 pm

Do you have any visible gap between the flywheel / clutch / pressure plate? If the PP fingers are being pressed in properly, you should at least have a gap showing somewhere.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:52 pm

@ Spence - the slave/TO is touching the pressure plate fingers at rest. Yes I did measure the distance before install I need to go dig those pictures up and have a look to confirm the distance and post it here. I do recall referencing xschops diagram aftering measuring and my measurements were spot on.

@supes6 - no gap when the clutch peddle is pressed, the slave pushes on the fingers but apparently not enough to release the clutch. I can see the pressure plate move a very small amount but not enough to release the disc. The slave moves aprox. 9mm when the peddle is pressed.

I talked to Admin and he feels my issue may just be that the slave is not moving enough to release the clutch. I plan to play with the MC input rod some more and ensure I have enough movement there. Step two will be to try a 2nd new clutch MC. Luckily my local foreign repair shop had one on the shelf and let make take it for the weekend in case I need to use it.

There is a test and tune at my local track on the 19th that I'd like to make, wish me luck!

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  944-LT1 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:32 pm

Which bearing did you use; the 11mm or the 14mm thick bearing?

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:42 pm

I used the 11mm bearing. The bearing sat below or inboard to the face of the flywheel by maybe 1/4 inch. I tested it with a straight edge to make sure it was recessed and not sitting proud.

I assume you are suggesting I have disc/pilot bearing interference. I tought about that but heres what does not make sense; suppose for a moment that the clutch disc hit the pilot bearing and spin welded itself to the bearing (let's hope not). When I press the clutch I should see the pressure plate move away from the disc and the disc would be stuck to the flywheel correct? Since I do not get any separation when I press the clutch, I am still thinking I'm not getting enough travel to release the clutch.

I should be able to mess with it tomorrow and hopefully make some progress.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:45 pm

Good news! I drove my 948 for the very first time today! I don't have plates or the front bumper on so I just drove around the neighborhood a bit. Wow, what a feeling to finally drive it.

Anyway Admin is the big winner, he diagnosed the issue. The MC was not pushing enough fluid to move the slave enough to release the clutch. I adjusted the MC rod out four turns and it worked, I was able to push in the clutch and select all forward gears without the wheels turning.

Now the not so great news - reverse is hard to select and the clutch engages very close to the floor. Looking at the clutch while a helper presses the peddle shows that I am getting very little movement of the pressure plate away from the disc. The slave travels about 1/2 inch. I don't get anywhere near the space between disc and pressure plate that supes6 picture showed. So I think althgough I can drive the car it's not quite fixed yet. I also had a neighbor help and bled the system again. 5 consecutive tries and every time the fluid ran out in a nice stream with no bubbles. I think I have this thing bled.

I hate to start throwing parts at the problem but I'm not sure what to try next. I could move the clutch rod out even more but at some point i will run out of threads. Thanks.

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Jim7 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:03 pm

Pardon me if this has been covered already but is it possible the MC isn't big enough and just isn't pushing enough fluid into the slave?

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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  rooster on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:16 pm

Jim,
You bring up a good point. I'm not sure, I see that some guys have gone with Tilton or Wilwood clutch MCs for this reason and yet there are folks who run the stock MC without any issues. Currently I have a new stock style MC.

Has anyone out there tried the stock MC and had to switch to aftermarket for this very reason? Anyone running stock MC successfully?




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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  Arthropraxis on Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:38 pm

I forget, did you measure for a shim? Is your firewall flexing when you push in the pedal? Anyway, congrats on getting the car running it is a good feeling.
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Re: Clutch won't disengage

Post  944-LT1 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:38 am

rooster wrote:Good news! I drove my 948 for the very first time today! I don't have plates or the front bumper on so I just drove around the neighborhood a bit. Wow, what a feeling to finally drive it.

Anyway Admin is the big winner, he diagnosed the issue. The MC was not pushing enough fluid to move the slave enough to release the clutch. I adjusted the MC rod out four turns and it worked, I was able to push in the clutch and select all forward gears without the wheels turning.

I hate to start throwing parts at the problem but I'm not sure what to try next. I could move the clutch rod out even more but at some point i will run out of threads. Thanks.

Glad to hear it wasnt anything that required pulling the engine. Congrats!

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