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Controlling the water temps on the track
+16
mr965
87-944S
Diyman25
marc a
968LS3RS
kevin924kevin
zeusrotty
Lemming
tooms351
rooster
acorad
948
skywalker01
Rich L.
fliermike45
docwyte
20 posters
944Hybrids: 924/944/968 and 928 V8 Conversions :: Technical Stuff (other than motors) :: Tracking Your Car
Page 3 of 6
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Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Here's the setup that I will be testing on the 14th and 15th at Barber. The oil cooler in front is half the size of the old cooler and not placed against the radiator, there's at least 1.5" to 2.0" inches between the two. I've also added inlets in the fiberglass bumper and everything inside is ducted. I still have to add wire mesh to protect everything and I'm ready to test.
Lemming- Posts : 855
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : B'ham
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
I've been debating cutting holes in my bumper like yours. I hit Pueblo Motorsports Park this weekend, we'll see how the Ron Davis radiator works out. If things are still getting hot, then I'll start cutting holes.
The thin air due to the altitude I'm at isn't doing me any favors...
The thin air due to the altitude I'm at isn't doing me any favors...
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Ran the car at Barber Motorsports Park this weekend, car ran great. With the new setup, my water temps never went over 210, oil was at 205, and trans was 185. Air temp was in the low to mid 90's and track temp on Saturday was 135.
Lemming- Posts : 855
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : B'ham
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Time for me to open up the front end of my car then. I don't anywhere near the open frontal area that you do. My temps were easily 20 degrees higher on water vs yours...
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Doc,docwyte wrote:Time for me to open up the front end of my car then. I don't anywhere near the open frontal area that you do. My temps were easily 20 degrees higher on water vs yours...
Do you have the plastic insert that seals the top of the radiator?
Also, I would close off the intercooler ducts first, that would help decrease the pressure behind the radiator.
948- Moderator
- Posts : 573
Join date : 2009-06-09
Age : 108
Location : East PA
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Yes, I have all the ducting in place. I may do that as well, but I think I need to open up the license plate area of the bumper first.
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Doc, another question..... with the oe radiator there are clips to hold the plastic insert against the radiator, do you still have this feature with the RD radiator? If not air will push that insert up and air will bypass the radiator; i made a bracket and used an UHB tape on my setup.docwyte wrote:Yes, I have all the ducting in place. I may do that as well, but I think I need to open up the license plate area of the bumper first.
948- Moderator
- Posts : 573
Join date : 2009-06-09
Age : 108
Location : East PA
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Not sure, I'll have to check.
While I'm sure that will help, I can't imagine it'll make a substantial difference in track water temps. Long story short, I need to open up the front end to get more air into the radiator.
I suspect the reason why my water temps are so much higher is the other guys are running a 944 front bumper that they've opened up more, don't have an AC condenser and aren't up at altitude.
I can't do anything about the last two things, but I can do something about the first one...
While I'm sure that will help, I can't imagine it'll make a substantial difference in track water temps. Long story short, I need to open up the front end to get more air into the radiator.
I suspect the reason why my water temps are so much higher is the other guys are running a 944 front bumper that they've opened up more, don't have an AC condenser and aren't up at altitude.
I can't do anything about the last two things, but I can do something about the first one...
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
You can never have enough cooling, i agree.docwyte wrote:I can't imagine it'll make a substantial difference in track water temps. Long story short, I need to open up the front end to get more air into the radiator...
Regarding the insert: Though it may not be enough improvement in cooling having that area sealed will make a difference. If, thats if, your insert is opening up, which it will at speed if it is not anchored down, it will create an area of about 40 sq inches for air to bypass your radiator. That is about the same area you will gain by cutting a few holes in the bumper.....it is worth the effort to make sure it is functioning correctly.
Regarding the AC condenser: griffiths sells a serpentine, plate type, condenser which has much less flow restriction Vs the oe tube type.....to save $ you could purchase a universal serpentine type and adapt it to your car like i did.
948- Moderator
- Posts : 573
Join date : 2009-06-09
Age : 108
Location : East PA
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Sorry to revive an old thread but I have a question. I just finished my first track day yesteday and the car ran great, no serious issues. I was taking it easy and the ambient temp was only 77 deg. and I was hitting about 225 on the water temp. I know this is lower then Doc sees so maybe I should be glad their not higher. Oil never got above 240. I will not be able to see how it responds to 95 deg plus until next spring.
Here is my question - am I better off blocking off the intercoller port in the bumber (951) to keep the pressure behind the radiator down, or figuring out a way to take advantage of the intercoller opening and make an aluminum duct that will channel that air into the top of the radiator? If I removed the black plastic piece that originally sectioned off that area I could channel air to the top of the rad perhaps. Has anyone done this? Or is the potential airflow increase not great enough for the effort? I am hoping I can do a few simple (cheap) things to keep the temp in check for one more track day this year. If I need a new rad, I'll tackle that this winter.
Here is my question - am I better off blocking off the intercoller port in the bumber (951) to keep the pressure behind the radiator down, or figuring out a way to take advantage of the intercoller opening and make an aluminum duct that will channel that air into the top of the radiator? If I removed the black plastic piece that originally sectioned off that area I could channel air to the top of the rad perhaps. Has anyone done this? Or is the potential airflow increase not great enough for the effort? I am hoping I can do a few simple (cheap) things to keep the temp in check for one more track day this year. If I need a new rad, I'll tackle that this winter.
rooster- Posts : 90
Join date : 2011-11-09
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
I'm just back from 2 days on track in eastern Oregon. We had 85-90 degree ambient temps which were a good test of my new cooling setup. The conclusion: Insufficient! I was seeing 220+ F with a new Wizard radiator that I got from Lindsey Racing, about the biggest core you can get in there without chassis mods. I'm pretty disappointed and have to conclude that mounting the Z06 oil cooler in front of the radiator is not okay.
As for your setup, Rooster, you may have the same issue as Lemming and myself of the oil cooler blocking too much of the airflow to the radiator. Perhaps directing the bumper slot in there would help. Perhaps venting your hood would help. Lemming has his setup working well now, check-out his posts.
Rich
As for your setup, Rooster, you may have the same issue as Lemming and myself of the oil cooler blocking too much of the airflow to the radiator. Perhaps directing the bumper slot in there would help. Perhaps venting your hood would help. Lemming has his setup working well now, check-out his posts.
Rich
Rich L.- Posts : 928
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : Seattle
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Thanks for the feedback Rich. I may try moving my oil cooler before I try anything else. It's about the same size as Lemmings but its in front of the radiator. Maybe if I move it up to the intercooler location I'll free up some capacity from the rad. I have left over braided hose, so for now that the cheapest option I have. I only plan to run one more track day this year so I'm in no real hurry to blow $500 on a new radiator just yet. I'll post my results.
rooster- Posts : 90
Join date : 2011-11-09
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
I'm using the Wizard radiator now, but the RH radiator behaved the same way before splitting. The key here is to completely seal the sides, top and bottom so all of the air goes through the radiator. I was at VIR last month . . . 98 degrees, track was scorching. It never went higher than 220. Oil temp 240. I have an oil cooler in front of the radiator hanging from the bumper.
I used a Tuffy garbage can and went from one side, under the radiator and then to the other side. Used neoprene clip on molding from McMaster Carr to seal the ends against the bumper cover. The inlet for the intercooler is sealed at the top of the radiator so the air goes through the radiator rather than into the engine bay.
Finally the fan is on a manual switch. You don't want the fan coming on when you are driving at speed since that impedes flow.
Hope this helps.
Marc
I used a Tuffy garbage can and went from one side, under the radiator and then to the other side. Used neoprene clip on molding from McMaster Carr to seal the ends against the bumper cover. The inlet for the intercooler is sealed at the top of the radiator so the air goes through the radiator rather than into the engine bay.
Finally the fan is on a manual switch. You don't want the fan coming on when you are driving at speed since that impedes flow.
Hope this helps.
Marc
marc a- Posts : 170
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Herndon, Va
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Marc, thanks for the info I'd like to copy what you have done and see if I can make it work for me too. I think I understand what you've done from your description but a few pics wouldn't hurt. Can you post some please?
Regarding the fans - are you running VSS? I'm am and I thought VSS was supposed to tell the PCM that the car was going over 35 mph and therefore turn off the fans and not impede airflow. Can someone confirm this?
Regarding the fans - are you running VSS? I'm am and I thought VSS was supposed to tell the PCM that the car was going over 35 mph and therefore turn off the fans and not impede airflow. Can someone confirm this?
rooster- Posts : 90
Join date : 2011-11-09
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
AM i the only think the porsche 944/968 front opening is way too small????
I know the important of building a correct duct and seal the underpan
but on my 93 MAZDA RX-7 i over heat the car around 2 laps.. at laguna seca..
but a year later i change to different bumper cover with much large opening... my over heat temp issue
is gone. now i can go 10-15 laps without worry of my water temp
at track ever thing should help... more air in no mater is high pressure or low pressure should cool bettter ,and extract air out from hood will help for sure
i am worry about my ls1 968 wont last long at track with stock bumper... cause the opening is pretty small even compare to 944.........
this is not might be every one's cup of tea but with such large opening area... i think most of our cooling issue will be solve
I know the important of building a correct duct and seal the underpan
but on my 93 MAZDA RX-7 i over heat the car around 2 laps.. at laguna seca..
but a year later i change to different bumper cover with much large opening... my over heat temp issue
is gone. now i can go 10-15 laps without worry of my water temp
at track ever thing should help... more air in no mater is high pressure or low pressure should cool bettter ,and extract air out from hood will help for sure
i am worry about my ls1 968 wont last long at track with stock bumper... cause the opening is pretty small even compare to 944.........
this is not might be every one's cup of tea but with such large opening area... i think most of our cooling issue will be solve
Diyman25- Posts : 79
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Taiwan
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
rooster wrote:Marc, thanks for the info I'd like to copy what you have done and see if I can make it work for me too. I think I understand what you've done from your description but a few pics wouldn't hurt. Can you post some please?
Regarding the fans - are you running VSS? I'm am and I thought VSS was supposed to tell the PCM that the car was going over 35 mph and therefore turn off the fans and not impede airflow. Can someone confirm this?
I'll try to get some up tonight, just got back from The Glen. The temps this weekend were in the low 70s and the water barely hit 190.
Sorry can't help with the VSS issue since I never connected the fan to the PCM.
Marc
marc a- Posts : 170
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Herndon, Va
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Same here, still using the 944 thermo switch and fan wiring. But I think you're right that the VSS and PCM won't run the fans at speed if you wire them up.
Rich
Rich
Rich L.- Posts : 928
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : Seattle
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Here are pictures. Sorry, it's not easy getting the inside of the nose.
https://picasaweb.google.com/102059909841735131107/RadiatorCowling
Marc
https://picasaweb.google.com/102059909841735131107/RadiatorCowling
Marc
marc a- Posts : 170
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Herndon, Va
Tony D59 likes this post
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Yep, default GM ECM setting is to turn off the fans at 35MPH.
87-944S- Posts : 744
Join date : 2009-06-10
Location : Maryland
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Thanks for the pictures Marc, that helps. Last weekend I made a duct to funnel air from the interrcooler port into the radiator. I've got a 951 and I've got the lower pans in place so I'm not sure I can do what you did with the plastic unless I get rid of them. I've got a track day next Wednesday, we'll see if the new ducting helps any.
rooster- Posts : 90
Join date : 2011-11-09
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Finally my custom set up is almost finish
look a bit rough now.. will do some track testing when i finish my valve spring swap
but will clean up a detail after this
move inlet and out let to passanger side of radiator, which is the right side i believe ha
look a bit rough now.. will do some track testing when i finish my valve spring swap
but will clean up a detail after this
move inlet and out let to passanger side of radiator, which is the right side i believe ha
Diyman25- Posts : 79
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Taiwan
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Revisiting this topic, I now have a SLP low temp thermostat, Evans Cooling water pump, have cut openings in the front of my turbo front bumper cover had have solidly mounted the RH/RD radiator. Fans are controlled through the PCM, with over run and turning off at speed.
Water temps are 10 degrees cooler when cruising around now, haven't been able to hit the track yet.
After talking to the local AI/CMC guys and hearing they were seeing the same water temps as me, I feel a little better about the temps I was seeing.
At this point I've done pretty much all I can, with the exception of venting the hood...
Water temps are 10 degrees cooler when cruising around now, haven't been able to hit the track yet.
After talking to the local AI/CMC guys and hearing they were seeing the same water temps as me, I feel a little better about the temps I was seeing.
At this point I've done pretty much all I can, with the exception of venting the hood...
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
When I find the time, I'm going to start logging (traqmate) my water and oil temps as well as oil pressure while on track. Just need to find a time to wire everything up.
Lemming- Posts : 855
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : B'ham
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
My new setup with hood vents worked great last weekend. Oil temps topped out around 220 F and water temps never exceeded 175 F. This under sustained hard lapping with ambient temps in the mid 60s F at 2300 ft of elevation.
Rich L.- Posts : 928
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : Seattle
Re: Controlling the water temps on the track
Where did you put the hood vents Rich?
docwyte- Posts : 1393
Join date : 2010-07-18
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944Hybrids: 924/944/968 and 928 V8 Conversions :: Technical Stuff (other than motors) :: Tracking Your Car
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