HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

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Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

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Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:24 pm

Howdy everyone! Long time no see Smile

About a year ago i put a Wilwood 7/8 clutch master on my system. I had a few issues getting everything working right, but eventually it was great...until today! It didn't feel right, so i checked the level and the reservoir was drained. Long story short, i noticed it was leaking out the back. A little soon for this! I have probably 10k on the setup.

I remember there were some issues for people who were using the firewall plate, but i assumed i would be okay since i am not, and the angle of my master cylinder hasn't changed. Has anyone else run into this?

My clutch system has been a real PITA, and i really hate the "throw" on it. I was considering using one of these: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Does anyone know off the top of their head what the ratio is on the stock pedal?
I had an old car that i converted to a manual with a really low ratio and i always loved the "on/off" nature of the pedal, none of this 8" throw stuff!

Anyways, just curious what every else's thoughts are on this. Thanks!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  948inVA on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:38 pm

My only guess is you could have a cracked firewall causing the angle to change. I just found out that mine is cracked the other day while prepping the engine bay, with the clutch master installed it's pretty hard to see. Now I know why I was grinding 2nd on downshifts sometimes..
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:44 pm

Thanks, i'll have to check that out. Where did yours crack?

If that's the case, that may be further incentive to use the pedal i linked to.
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  948inVA on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:51 pm

Right below and to the right of the master cylinder:

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Arthropraxis on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:09 pm

I inspected both sides of my firewall for cracks and found none. With the clutch MC installed the firewall would bulge as the clutch was depressed and the clutch felt hard to push in. I made a brace out of angle iron. Now, the clutch is lighter, smooth and much easier to depress with minimal bulging of the firewall.
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:36 pm

Thanks guys. I checked it out--i do indeed have a crack there on my firewall.

On the other hand i pulled the master out and disassembled it. It is totally wiped out...not rebuildable unless i hone it, after less than 10k miles. I can't believe the firewall is flexing THAT much!

I'm debating whether i'll build a brace as some have, or just switch to a floor-mounted master. I need to pull up the carpet and see what's available...seems like that would solve a lot of my problems (i'm eventually going to lower my brake pedal, and it would be nice to have a deeper clutch pedal with a shorter throw).

Will keep you updated...but feel free to add input if you've got it Smile
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:59 pm

P.S. - any pictures of braces would be appreciated!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Rich L. on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:27 am

Bummer about your troubles, Man. I've read on here about the Wilwood having a shorter extension through the firewall than the stock master. That might make the angles wrong and cause early wear like you're seeing.

By the way, here's a brace XSchop posted a while back. I believe he used the alternator mounting rod to do the bracing from his brake master mount. Hope this helps.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

By the way, I didn't like the looks of any of this. Hence going with a floor mount pedal box. It's been a ton of screwing around trying to get it to work. Latest was a substantial leak of brake fluid through the rear master cylinder today while at work. I came home to a big puddle under the car and a frame rail full of fluid. Ick!

Anyway, best of luck.
Rich
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  robstah on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:59 am

I too will probably be looking at another master to swap out with the Wilwood. I had sealing issues with it before, but my major issue was the customer support. Not only could I not order a fitting without ordering a new master, but the guy on the phone basically laughed at me for even trying a banjo setup on it.

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  xschop on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:44 am

It doesn't matter what brand of clutch or brake MC you use, if your firewall is cracked/weak it'll flex and continue to increase as time goes on. My Firewall is still perfect, I had some mount deflection on the Dual MC housing that the bracket/brace removed completely. The dual MC's are still working flawlessly as well as the clutch MC. A 7/8" Clutch MC will exert more force on the Firewall than a 13/16" MC. I only changed to a 13/16" clutch MC recently because the Centerforce Clutch pressure plate requires less throw than the factory PP.
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:37 am

Thanks for all the info. I guess i'm not the only one with this problem!

I posted over at rennlist to see if anyone has used a floor setup over there. That would really fix a few problems for me. If not, i think i have a good idea for fixing the firewall and improving on several other faults at the same time (i dislike the master cylinder being clocked as it is--it traps air in the top of the master because there is no path for the air to move upwards to the reservoir).

I do like the idea of the rod to brace the clutch, though. I saved mine and i'll see if i can work it into my solution!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Rich L. on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:38 am

Here's mine. Smile

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  944-LT1 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:07 pm

On the other hand i pulled the master out and disassembled it. It is totally wiped out...not rebuildable unless i hone it, after less than 10k miles.

What did the bore look like? Was the piston scrapping along one edge of the bore? If so, it could have alot to do with the angle of the bore relative to the pushrod. If the pushrod is pushing up on the piston as you depress the clutch pedal, the piston seals will wear quickly and start to leak. If so, you should look into the pushrod to piston angle of attack. I know the firewall has a "built-in" angle in it to cause the master cylinder to angle upwards but when you installed the wilwood, was it angled correctly (unimpeded seating of master cylinder base to that angled sheetmetal)?

The bore/seals will tell-all of how it failed.

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:45 pm

Rich L. wrote:Here's mine. Smile

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Oh wow! That is beautiful!
I would love to do something like that, but i'm pretty set on the hydroboost brake setup, and my gas pedal works fine (basically: i don't want to spend the money to give myself more issues to sort out than i have already). That is definitely hot though!!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:51 pm

944-LT1 wrote:
What did the bore look like? Was the piston scrapping along one edge of the bore? If so, it could have alot to do with the angle of the bore relative to the pushrod. If the pushrod is pushing up on the piston as you depress the clutch pedal, the piston seals will wear quickly and start to leak. If so, you should look into the pushrod to piston angle of attack. I know the firewall has a "built-in" angle in it to cause the master cylinder to angle upwards but when you installed the wilwood, was it angled correctly (unimpeded seating of master cylinder base to that angled sheetmetal)?

The bore/seals will tell-all of how it failed.

Yep, you nailed it. I did have the master seated all the way on the angled portion of the firewall, but i'm guessing that the flexing of the firewall caused the angle to become incorrect. All the wear was focused on the top side of the master cylinder. The bore and the piston are both totally worn out. I will not be attempting to rebuild.

I picked up a new master cylinder (a different style) and i think i have it figured out what i'm going to do with the firewall. I'll probably get to it this weekend or next, and i'll post up the results! Unfortunately it's going to be a cut/weld job, so not for the faint of heart Smile
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  944-LT1 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:02 pm

Porch wrote:... it's going to be a cut/weld job, so not for the faint of heart

Uh oh! Dont forget to disconnect the computer (completely) before welding and keep us posted!

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:21 pm

Hehe, thanks for the reminder Smile Parts are ordered, i'll keep you posted!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:14 pm

Well, here's what i've got so far.

Problem:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Solution:
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From the side:
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If someone has enough stuff out of their car to measure, i'd love to know what the angle of the stock master cylinder is (compared to the firewall). I came up with about 5-6*.

Right now i'm at a "proof of concept" stage, no permanent changes have been made. I'm a little split on where to go from here. I had planned to weld this piece on, but I'm going to have to run bolts through the firewall, so i don't think that's necessary...but it wouldn't hurt either. I could make a similar piece of aluminum, then make a similar piece on the back end to sandwich the firewall (although, there are intricacies to the firewall that would make that a real pain). If i weld this piece on i will probably also weld another piece in to stabilize it along the strut tower.

I like the idea of having the bolts vertical instead of horizontal, i think that is the flaw in the stock system. It's also how the Wilwood system is designed to be installed--and it's really hard to get the air bubbles out of the master otherwise.

I had originally planned to install a longer master cylinder and picked up this Wilwood:
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The mounting holes in the master would have made it really easy to stabilize...but, no dice. It's simply too large, even after massaging the strut tower a little.

I'm all ears if anyone has thoughts.



Last edited by 944-LT1 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Pictures need to be resized before posting)
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  944-LT1 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:23 am

Thats similar to what I did as well. I still need to fab a permanent mount to get the 6 degrees though. Havent had a chance to get it machined up yet.

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  87-944S on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:12 am

I have less than a mile on my Wilwood and I see a little weeping. I have both Wilwood and Tilton compact M/Cs, and I feel the Tiltons are better made.
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:28 pm

@944-LT1: No issues with mounting it completely vertical? I assumed that the factory angled it upwards because that's the arc that the pedal travels in?
Nice job cleaning that whole area up, BTW.

@87-944S: Thanks for the input! The Tilton version of this master is $2 more, i think i will spend the $2! I'm very shy about using the Wilwood again....even with the firewall problem, i can't believe it wore out this fast.
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  944-LT1 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:55 pm

Porch wrote:@944-LT1: No issues with mounting it completely vertical? I assumed that the factory angled it upwards because that's the arc that the pedal travels in?
Nice job cleaning that whole area up, BTW.

No not really. The reservoir is a little big; could be smaller and fit alot easier. The only problem I have right now is time to make an angle bracket to put between the clutch master cylinder and the firewall...still havent done that mainly because ive been so busy lately. Embarassed As it is right now, theres a few washers on the bottom bolt angling it up the correct amount which I did to bleed the system.

Same thing with the brake mc. Need to make an angled bracket to angle it up as well.

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:25 pm

Oh i see, so you do have it angled a little, you just haven't made it official yet!
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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  944-LT1 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:13 pm

You got it! Probably just gonna do exactly what you are doing.....so keep going. Laughing

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Re: Wilwood clutch master died WAY too soon!

Post  Porch on Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:30 pm

Firewall modification complete!

I fretted a lot about "what if it's not the exact right angle?", and in the end i did this to determine whether the angle was correct:
Took the old master cylinder, pulled it apart. The piston has two springs inside. I inserted the piston backwards with paper towel stuffed in so it could only go half-way down the bore. I slid in only the larger spring, and put it back together (washer + clip). Then I took the pushrod, turned it down to be the correct diameter to fit inside the larger spring. This way there was a "tunnel" for the pushrod to go down. From there i held it by hand while my girlfriend pushed the clutch pedal down and pulled it back up. This assured me that the angle was correct for the "arc" of the pedal travel. (Note: I didn't change anything from the picture above, so an angle of about 6* is correct)
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Once i was sure about that, i went ahead and welded everything on there. (I have a lense with a shallow depth of field on my camera right now, sorry that some stuff is blurry...will try to get better pictures later)
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Definitely not beatiful welds, but they'll hold. I used a gas-less HF MIG that i got for free, and that area was really tight to weld in (still need to buy a real welder one of these days). I'll cover it all in seam sealer and paint it up real pretty, then bolt the rest up. I have some washers made for shock absorbers (thick, cupped) that i'll use on the back side to spread out the load.

I picked up a Tilton master cylinder this time, still 7/8".
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