HOW TO DO AN ADVANCED SEARCH.

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm by Admin


For the benefit of 944Hybrids users there are two search functions available for you to use.
The purpose of this sticky is to explain the "Advanced Search" function because it is much more powerful and is the best choice when researching information.

When you log on to the site a list of options is shown in a line at the top of the page. One option is labelled "Search", use this option (NOT the search box lower down on the right).

After you click on the upper search option, a drop down box appears. At the bottom of this box is a radio button marked "Advanced …

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Anybody with CARB experience?

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Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  v2rocket on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:42 pm

Wondering if anyone here has gone through the CARB process to get the smog stuff checked out to get the sticker...

I realize they look around for all the engine's original smog equipment and make sure everything is in order, but specific to the engine what do they check for? Laws basically say you can't put a truck motor into a car (classification based on GVWR) so doing my dreamt-of Vortec swap is technically illegal. However, aside from checking for an iron block or looking for a casting number there's not really a way for someone to identify an engine being Vortec or LS-type (assuming LS intake/accessories are attached as they would be for a 944 swap) unless they are intimately familiar with the engines.

Basically, I want to know if I can "wing it"...maybe buy some aluminum-colored spraypaint for the block and just say I like to keep things clean..

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  Admin on Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:16 pm

Just grind off the raised 4.8 ,5.3 on the front cylinder and paint the block. There are not any numbers that they read any where else without some dis assembly.

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  acorad on Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:21 pm

V2, my car is CA legal, although I didn't build it so I don't have any direct experience with this, and I don't know which specific vortec you have your sights on. However, after wasting way too much time on google today, this is what I've come up with...

First, the CA BAR guys probably won't have any idea whether the engine came from a pickup truck or a passenger car, assuming you remove any identification castings like Admin said.

Second, I think you may be able to swap a truck vortec engine into a passenger car legally in CA, depending on the truck it comes from.

It seems to be all about emissions - if the truck the engine came from was held by CA to the same emissions requirements that it holds passenger cars to, then I think CA will allow the truck engine to be swapped into a passenger car.

And I think 3/4 ton trucks, for example, are held to the same emissions as passenger cars, and some of them have vortec engines.

Confirm for yourself of course, I may be completely off base here!
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  Bluemach1 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:54 pm

Nope. No way. In no case can you take a engine from one class to another. I spoke with CARB about this. They were very clear on this point.

I think that most of the inspectors are going to be pretty savvy. I dont think that grinding off the identifiers is going to help as it will probably just give them cause to ask more questions.

Yes, you will need the emissions, including the evap, stock cats (with both O2's) and fuel return. You will also need to run the stock exaust manifolds as there are no CARB legal headers that work for our conversions. Additionally, I have heard tell of people getting hassled over just the air cleaner. Need to use a CARB approved one that would have been approved for the make of vehicle you are trying to get your car approved as.....

Give CARB a call. Hopefully you can get a good tech to talk to. The fellow I spoke with was very helpful and was really a car guy. Was really into the conversion.

The last point that I gathered from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] when it was alive, was that the inspectors from site to site can range widely from being from complete pricks to very cool...

ACORAD: I think you got your conversion from Craig Hardy? Some of the input for my pints here came from him right after he got rid of his car. I know he is on this board but cant remember his name....

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  acorad on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:27 pm

Well, there you go.

V2, yes, do what Bluemach1 says and call or visit your local CARB location. What I had read was that 3/4 ton PU's are included in the passenger car class for stricter emissions than other heaver trucks, but considering it's both logical and that I read it on the intertubes, it's probably completely incorrect. I tried but I could not find anywhere the CA DMV definitions of "vehicle class" that would answer the question.

Confirm for yourself!

Oh, and let us know what you found out...

Bluemach1, sorry, yes, Craig did my conversion, but I've had dinner and a beer so I'm not sure what the rest of this means:
ACORAD: I think you got your conversion from Craig Hardy? Some of the input for my pints here came from him right after he got rid of his car. I know he is on this board but cant remember his name....
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  Bluemach1 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:48 pm

acorad wrote:Bluemach1, sorry, yes, Craig did my conversion, but I've had dinner and a beer so I'm not sure what the rest of this means:
ACORAD: I think you got your conversion from Craig Hardy? Some of the input for my pints here came from him right after he got rid of his car. I know he is on this board but cant remember his name....

What I was trying to say was that I had spoke with him right after he sold the car and that I got some pointers on the process from him.

I was particularly interested in how he got the smog pump working....

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  Bluemach1 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:57 pm

From CA BAR:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  Dawgz83948 on Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:28 am

You absolutely cannot put a truck motor into a car. If you try the iron block aluminum head LS you will be caught, however the L33 (or whatever the aluminum block truck motor) with all the LS1 bits up top will be harder to find. They typically look at the vin on the computer and your word as to what engine is in the car. I spent some fun times at the BAR getting my 944 certified and in the end I needed two exemptions 1) for the location of the cats 2) for the cone air filter (this only because no emissions related equiptment was installed post MAF). Make no grinding modifications to your car as it will give the BAR inspectors cause to blacklist your car and you will NOT be able to EVER get it legal.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  acorad on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:37 pm

This was bugging me so I just spent some time on the phone with a guy at the CA Dept of Consumer Affairs. He says he's an expert at resolving BAR issues and he was very familiar with the CA engine change guidelines.

The problem is that the CA engine change guidelines, which Bluemach1 linked to above, are very vague. So it leaves the guidelines open to interpretation by whichever CA official you happen to be talking to.

From the guidelines:

"Classification

Don't mix engine and vehicle classifications which will degrade the emissions certification standards. For example, a heavy–duty engine cannot be installed in a light–duty exhaust–controlled chassis even if they have the same displacement. Non–emissions controlled power plants such as industrial or off–road–use–only engines may not be placed in any exhaust–controlled vehicle."

The guy I talked to uses the vehicle's GVWR as the deciding factor as to whether an engine change is allowed or not. For him, you can swap engines if the GVWR of the car the engine is going into is the equal to or more than the GVWR of the car the engine came out of.

Other officials may use different factors to decide what "classification" a vehicle is in and whether a swap is allowed or not

The long and short of it though is that the guy I talked to said no way can you put a truck engine of any type in a passenger car.

Which make some sense because by checking on emissions requirements of various cars and trucks at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] all the trucks I looked at have significantly less strict emissions requirements than any of the cars I looked at, such that swapping a truck motor into a car would definitely "degrade the emissions certification standards" for that car and therefor not be allowed. (To get emissions on some of the vehicles in the database you need to google the GVWR of the vehicle and enter it when prompted.)

Anyway, for my car, the emissions requirements of the 2002 Camaro TT ( 51, 0.48, 419) that my engine came from are more strict than the those of the 1987 944 Turbo (81, 0.52, 689) that the engine got swapped into. So this would be a good thing from CA's point of view and the swap would be/was allowed.

Anyway, the guy I talked to said he'd be happy to take any further phone calls if anyone wanted to ask him more questions. Glenn Wilson, CA Dept Consumer Afffairs, 800-952-5210. Ask the receptionist for a technical representative and they'll connect you to him.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm

Any updates on this process?

I've moved from Ontario Canada to San Diego and my car will arrive later this year, I understand I can drive the car for a year with Canadian plates and no emissions. I will be collecting parts to then convert the car to pass the CARB and Smog inspections.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what I need to pass the CARB process (CAT's, EGR, Smog Pump, EVAP system), I know some of you have done this and I would love to know what pieces were needed. My car currently has an LS6 block, 575/585 lift cam with 806 heads, I have a fresh set of milled 243 heads to be installed early next year.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  v2rocket on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:21 pm

pormgb wrote:Any updates on this process?

I've moved from Ontario Canada to San Diego and my car will arrive later this year, I understand I can drive the car for a year with Canadian plates and no emissions. I will be collecting parts to then convert the car to pass the CARB and Smog inspections.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what I need to pass the CARB process (CAT's, EGR, Smog Pump, EVAP system), I know some of you have done this and I would love to know what pieces were needed. My car currently has an LS6 block, 575/585 lift cam with 806 heads, I have a fresh set of milled 243 heads to be installed early next year.
It will need to appear as it came from the factory - standard-looking LS6 intake/filter/EGR/cats/exhaust manifolds/everything related to emissions, in the right places, and need to pass smog.

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  shokwave30 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:27 pm

PORMGB.. if u have family back in canada and gonna keep ur canadian drivers license i'd keep it that way. when i lived in CA i got tired of their bs so i registered my vehicle out of iowa but i did keep my ca drvrs license. yeah maybe wasnt supposed to but oh well. and with insurance ur vehicle is only supposed to be at ur home location at 50% of the time. they dont know either way.

CHP only questioned it once and i told them i was an IA resident. He asked me where do u pay taxes to. without blinking.. iowa. he was ok with it and let me go.

carb really sucks especially when its the interpretation of the officer. this one can say no to u then i go in to another location and they say yes. they cant get it together.. uuugh.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:56 pm

v2rocket wrote:
pormgb wrote:Any updates on this process?

I've moved from Ontario Canada to San Diego and my car will arrive later this year, I understand I can drive the car for a year with Canadian plates and no emissions. I will be collecting parts to then convert the car to pass the CARB and Smog inspections.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what I need to pass the CARB process (CAT's, EGR, Smog Pump, EVAP system), I know some of you have done this and I would love to know what pieces were needed. My car currently has an LS6 block, 575/585 lift cam with 806 heads, I have a fresh set of milled 243 heads to be installed early next year.
It will need to appear as it came from the factory - standard-looking LS6 intake/filter/EGR/cats/exhaust manifolds/everything related to emissions, in the right places, and need to pass smog.

OK,
I was planning to use CARB EO certified aftermarket headers and Cats with other stock LS6 emission components, my LS6 intake does not have provisions for EGR.

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:58 pm

shokwave30 wrote: PORMGB.. if u have family back in canada and gonna keep ur canadian drivers license i'd keep it that way. when i lived in CA i got tired of their bs so i registered my vehicle out of iowa but i did keep my ca drvrs license. yeah maybe wasnt supposed to but oh well. and with insurance ur vehicle is only supposed to be at ur home location at 50% of the time. they dont know either way.

CHP only questioned it once and i told them i was an IA resident. He asked me where do u pay taxes to. without blinking.. iowa. he was ok with it and let me go.

carb really sucks especially when its the interpretation of the officer. this one can say no to u then i go in to another location and they say yes. they cant get it together.. uuugh.

Thanks!! Very Happy
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  sparkydog on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:38 am

Noob here getting ready to buy a 944 and do a V8 conversion and also try to do the CARB legal thing. My 1st question about CARB rules is: would I be better off to buy a non-CA spec 944 and non-CA spec donor vehicle? If I read their "rules" correctly it seems like this might be a better way (less mandatory smog equipment).

Do any of you CARB pioneers have comments? Thanks for your help!
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:18 pm

sparkydog wrote:Noob here getting ready to buy a 944 and do a V8 conversion and also try to do the CARB legal thing. My 1st question about CARB rules is: would I be better off to buy a non-CA spec 944 and non-CA spec donor vehicle? If I read their "rules" correctly it seems like this might be a better way (less mandatory smog equipment).

Do any of you CARB pioneers have comments? Thanks for your help!

From what I understand, smog equipment is based on what the donor car had when manufactured. You will see many comments about pulling a motor with all its smog equipment, this allows you to get all the pieces that will be inspected by the referee. From my experience, the only smog piece that can't be installed in a 944 is the gas tank.

I have a California spec 944 but I don't think that means anything unless my car had its stock motor, my car will be inspected based on its new motor. My car has a EPA Catalyst sticker and a California emission sticker under the hood that relates to its original motors smog equipment.

When I moved to California from Canada, I brought a 2007 Mitsubishi Endeavor SUV, all I had to do was smog check it and have it registered, the smog guy only checked for EPA stickers. There may be different rules for different years.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  sparkydog on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:15 pm

I guess I am referring to this statement
"If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine."
Which appears on the arb.ca.gov page about 1/2 way down.

And which dovetails with this statement "A federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certified (federal or 49–state) engine cannot be used in a vehicle that was originally certified for California." which appears on the autorepair.ca.gov page (I'm a new member so I am not allowed to post external links until I can prove I'm not a spambot or malware.)

To me this means that in addition to all of the other requirements/challenges that will be involved in grafting a more modern motor into the 944 and passing CA smog tests, if the 944 that is receiving the newer motor was originally sold as a CA certified vehicle then I have yet ANOTHER detail to sweat which is that the donor car that I obtain the newer motor/cats/evap/air cleaner/PCV etc from must also have been a CA certified vehicle.

I'm not trying to bypass or beat the system here. I want my refreshed 944 to pass smog and save the planet. I just want to keep the hassles to a minimum. Just seems to me a 49-state 944 (originally sold outside of CA) would give me a little more flexibility.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:18 pm

sparkydog wrote:I guess I am referring to this statement
"If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine."
Which appears on the arb.ca.gov  page about 1/2 way down.

And which dovetails with this statement "A federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certified (federal or 49–state) engine cannot be used in a vehicle that was originally certified for California." which appears on the autorepair.ca.gov page (I'm a new member so I am not allowed to post external links until I can prove I'm not a spambot or malware.)

To me this means that in addition to all of the other requirements/challenges that will be involved in grafting a more modern motor into the 944 and passing CA smog tests, if the 944 that is receiving the newer motor was originally sold as a CA certified vehicle then I have yet ANOTHER detail to sweat which is that the donor car that I obtain the newer motor/cats/evap/air cleaner/PCV etc from must also have been a CA certified vehicle.

I'm not trying to bypass or beat the system here. I want my refreshed 944 to pass smog and save the planet. I just want to keep the hassles to a minimum. Just seems to me a 49-state 944 (originally sold outside of CA) would give me a little more flexibility.

I see your point, there are so many interpretations of CA laws. I actually re-imported my car, it currently has Canadian plates but I am sure somewhere the is record of it being sold in CA.

Another twist to these comments, what about using a LS motor out of Californian Camaro, that would not be a 49 state motor.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  sparkydog on Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 pm

A '96+ Z28 Camaro is definitely on my short list of engine donor vehicles - no matter what state it was originally sold in!

I guess what I need to do is research how much CA certified vehicles are different from 49-state vehicles in terms of the equipment I have to install. I am not worried at all that a 49-state fuel injected motor will pass emissions in CA. I have never had trouble getting a non-CA car that I own to pass CA smog when I moved here (5 times and counting... sigh). I remember that back in the 70's the differences were dramatic but I'm sure that the more modern the car the more a 49-state vehicle's emissions equipment is identical to a CA vehicle.

It's just that the engine bay of a 944 looks pretty darn crowded with an LXX V8 in there and anything at all that I can avoid having to locate is worth omitting. Didn't I read about air pumps or something being a PITA? Isn't that a CA only requirement?
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:25 pm

sparkydog wrote:A '96+ Z28 Camaro is definitely on my short list of engine donor vehicles - no matter what state it was originally sold in!

I guess what I need to do is research how much CA certified vehicles are different from 49-state vehicles in terms of the equipment I have to install. I am not worried at all that a 49-state fuel injected motor will pass emissions in CA. I have never had trouble getting a non-CA car that I own to pass CA smog when I moved here (5 times and counting... sigh). I remember that back in the 70's the differences were dramatic but I'm sure that the more modern the car the more a 49-state vehicle's emissions equipment is identical to a CA vehicle.

It's just that the engine bay of a 944 looks pretty darn crowded with an LXX V8 in there and anything at all that I can avoid having to locate is worth omitting. Didn't I read about air pumps or something being a PITA? Isn't that a CA only requirement?

I read somewhere that late model Corvettes had a special option code for California.

I have looked at lots of Camaro and Corvette smog parts, the only difference I see is the type of smog pump with accessories and early model Camaros using EGR valves. Early Camaros also used different exhaust manifolds, they used pressed steel vs cast, pressed steel won't work on our conversions. A buddy of mine has a Firebird from Florida, it has all the same smog parts a Californian Firebird.

The smog pump is not a big deal, it can be located in the battery tray area or somewhere under the nose panel, you will also need to get the right air tubes since there are two types that exit the exhaust manifold at different angles. My approach was to install every smog part possible (start collecting), the only piece I don't have is a Camaro gas tank, I even installed a fuel tank pressure sensor and a 270 ohm resistor to emulate my gas tank being 85% full.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  docwyte on Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:34 am

All of the later cars were made one spec, ie, there isn't a 49 state spec car and a Cali spec car. They used to do that in the early '90's, but by the late '90's they'd stopped.

In other words, it doesn't matter which donor car you get the motor from, the spec will be the same for all of them.

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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  acorad on Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:15 am

Yes, what docwyte said. All LSx engines are certified for CA (and for everywhere else in the US).
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  sparkydog on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:16 pm

sparkydog wrote:I guess what I need to do is research how much CA certified vehicles are different from 49-state vehicles in terms of the equipment I have to install.

I spent 1/2hr surfing the web after this post. Numerous people asking the same question I did. No obvious site that I could find where there is a list of year-by-year what the CA certified requirements were compared with EPA. I guess the best strategy is to just make sure my donor vehicle is CA certified and call it good.
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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  pormgb on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:57 pm

Found this information, it seems some Corvettes had a special code for California. This code was only available between 1998 and 2000, this also corresponds to changes on Camaro/Firebird LS1s (no EGR, different smog pump). 2001 and up seems to be the year when all motors had the same smog components, I think EGR was also removed after 2000.


California Emissions (YF5) - Specialized configuration of the emissions system to meet state requirements.

The 5.7 liter LS1 V8 engine is revised to comply with government LEV (low emissions vehicle) requirements in California and states requiring California emissions. The PCM, or powertrain control module, has been re-calibrated with an emphasis on strickter emission control.


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Re: Anybody with CARB experience?

Post  sparkydog on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:40 am

Does the donor vehicle need to have a clean title? Do the CARB/BAR dudes care about this or do they just focus on the equipment? The reason I ask is I can find several candidate donors that have messed up paperwork - no pink, or owe back fees, salvage title - stuff like that.
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